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This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

Pam (00:00)
In our last episode, we touched on making new friends and how I had had a friend date with someone. So we wanted to kind of go deeper on that topic and talk about the importance of friendships, especially as we get older and how to actually make friends when you’re older and the fears that are around it and the awkwardness and just kind of really do a deep dive into all of it. But first I wanted to…

kind of talk about the differences between you and I, Sarah, because we’ve talked many times about how I’m a pretty hermit person. I have a couple of friends, I don’t do a lot of social activities, and you appear to be very, different than that. You have a pretty wide network of friends and socializing is very important to you. Is that fair to say?

Sarah (00:51)
It’s fair to say, yeah, I’ve always loved having a core group of friends and then also making new friends. So I’ve had a lot of the same friends for a long time, like since grade seven or grade nine or university, and I’m in my mid 40s. So this is a really long time. then along the way, I’ve had so many different chapters, living in different places, becoming a mom, working in different places. And I’ve tended to sort of develop close friendships in those.

circles too. So yeah, I love having a lot of friends and spending time with friends.

Pam (01:25)
Yeah.

So you have a lot of experience in making new friends and then maintaining those relationships even when your circumstances change and maybe you’re not spending time with those people out of duty or, you know, or the situations like you carry those friendships on.

Sarah (01:38)
Yep.

I mean, yeah, I carry them on sometimes and then sometimes they, they, you know, fizzle out or they’re, they, they kind of disappear because there’s only so many hours in the day. So that’s also something I think about like letting go of friendships and how, you know, different seasons of our lives, we might have some great friendships and.

then they might not last and how that’s also okay. So I certainly haven’t kept all of the friendships, but I would say I, you know, I do have a lot of friends.

Pam (02:15)
what is the importance for you for having these friends? Like what does it bring to your life that I think people, you we talk about the importance of friendship, and everybody understands it on a conceptual level, but then we don’t bring it into actual practice to feel it ourselves.

Sarah (02:27)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it’s just having friends feels good. Having good friends feels good. And of course, there’s so much research. We know this. Research backs up that when we have more friends, have better or good friendship. doesn’t more doesn’t necessarily mean better. But when we have good friendship, we feel that we have better mental health, better emotional health, also better, better physical health.

There’s so many benefits that science shows us, but that’s not why I do it. It’s just because it feels good. I like it. I like sharing memories with people, sharing moments with people. I like talking about things. I like learning about other people. I find it fun doing activities with friends. So for me, that’s why it’s important.

Pam (03:23)
Do you find that you’re the organizer of the activities in your friend group? Like, do you take on that responsibility or is it shared?

Sarah (03:31)
That’s a great question. I think it depends. I think often we can find it fall into roles in right in long standing relationships. So I think with some people, maybe I tend to initiate phone calls or plans and with other friends less so they take that on, they sort of take that leadership role on. So it depends.

Pam (03:38)
Yeah.

Okay,

yeah, interesting. So you talked about the benefits that we get from having kind of a network of friends on the personal level of, better mental health, better physical health, all of that. There’s other benefits as well. We’ve talked before about like, networking and finding jobs. And one of the best ways to find a job is through a personal referral. And while this sounds like a, you know, kind of practical reason to have friends,

Sarah (03:59)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So true.

Pam (04:22)
It is a real benefit to having friends that they can introduce you to other people and bring you in for professional opportunities.

Sarah (04:28)
Yeah, I mean, maybe that sounds transactional, but on a basic level, it’s friends will help you with different things, not just finding a job, but anything with advice. Right. All kinds of help.

Pam (04:34)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And to take that, not to be a downer, but to take that to the like nth degree. You know, if your partner is your only close friend or is your entire support network, like at some point, one of you is going to die. And if you don’t have a network of friends to support you through that, it can be really difficult.

Sarah (04:57)
Mm-hmm.

me.

Pam (05:08)
So, building those friends now so that when you’re 80, you’ve been friends for a couple decades and you have that built in. It seems like something like so far in the future, but I saw it with my mom. Her kids are really her only close friends. And so we had to be her support system, which I was happy to do, but it definitely would have been better for her if she’d had some close friends to be with her.

Sarah (05:08)
Yeah.

That’s interesting. Yeah, that’s a good perspective. And I certainly know of some couples where you hear of, you know, one person sadly passing on and then the story of, well, this other person didn’t really have any friends because it was the one who passed on. They were the ones that really sort of kept the social circle going and always made all the plans. Sometimes in a relationship that will happen. There’ll be kind of one person that really brings the party or like…

Pam (05:49)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (06:00)
brings the friends organizing things and the other one less so. And so if that person disappears, then there goes sort of your source of connection and friendship.

Pam (06:10)
Yeah, that is is such a big issue actually, more for men, because typically women are the ones who are the social organizers. Yeah, so I read some statistic that like one year post divorce is the most dangerous time for men for suicide, because they lose their entire social network when they lose their wife through divorce. It’s sad, but just to underscore that importance of

Sarah (06:15)
Mm-hmm. The organizers and the conveners, yeah.

sad.

Pam (06:39)
having friends and maintaining these relationships.

Sarah (06:42)
Yeah, and we hear this, know this, loneliness is pervasive. And I read one stat when I was getting ready for today’s conversation, I read one stat that said for adults over 45 in the US, more than one third, so 35 % of them reported feeling lonely on a daily basis.

Pam (07:10)
That’s so sad. And we think, you people think that the time that they spend on social media is replacing friendships. And while you can, find groups that, you know, help you identify with your interests and whatnot, I think that this push to all of our social time being at a distance has really come at a detriment to our mental health.

Sarah (07:12)
It is sad. It is sad.

Couldn’t agree more. Yeah, couldn’t agree more. Yeah, I mean, it’s a fine way to stay in touch, but it’s not a way to build like a real relationship, a trusting relationship.

Pam (07:51)
Yeah, it’s easy. And the fact of the matter is that building real relationships is hard. I mean, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be confident in sharing and communicating and just developing that connection. You have to be open. You have to be engaged. Yeah.

Sarah (07:58)
It is hard.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And you have to use your time. And

in our capitalist society, we always think we don’t have enough time. Right. We should be being productive. Right. Or kind of zoning out. Whereas, even though it’s so fulfilling and often I’ll make a plan and then when the time comes, I’ll, I don’t really want to go. Right. It’s an effort. But I know, well, I’m going to feel better.

Pam (08:23)
Right.

Right.

You

Sarah (08:40)
after I have a coffee with my friend or after we walk the dogs together or whatever it is, go see a movie together, whatever it is, I’m gonna feel happy that I had that connected time with them. Almost the way, how I would feel about exercise, I don’t wanna go, well, I’m not gonna regret it once I’m done, so I kind of have to push myself. It’s the same thing with friendship.

Pam (09:01)
I was just going to say that, that as you were saying that, it’s all the same things that go through your head when you don’t want to work out. And these things that we know are good for us are the hardest things to do. It’s like a faulty wiring or something in our brains, like that these things that will have the most benefit are the hardest to get yourself to do.

Sarah (09:03)
Yeah.

mmhmm

Yeah, so true. And also what you said about social media really fits in here because now we have social media to fall back on and our smart phones to fall back on and we’re going to be getting dopamine hits. Whereas when we were younger, when we were teenagers, we didn’t have that. So we would we would always I don’t know about you, but every day after school, I was with my friends weekends all nonstop. And if we weren’t together, we were speaking on the phone like all night long. Right. So because we didn’t have another way to feel this

Pam (09:36)
Yeah.

Sarah (09:50)
kind of, you know, connection, quote, I’m putting that in quotation, the social, which is created by social media, which we know actually ultimately isn’t that fulfilling and actually leads to a lot more problems typically. Yeah, so we were kind of forced into spending time together in person. So it’s so much easier now to back out.

Pam (10:13)
Yeah. And, because when we’re younger, you know, you’re in school with people. So you’re having forced time together. You’re playing sports with them, you’re in class with them, and then you go into work. And that’s where a lot of people then make their friends.

Sarah (10:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Pam (10:29)
after school, but then as we get older or like for us, we’re working for ourselves, we don’t have the in-office interaction, that forced time together builds friendships. And if you don’t have that like constant, constant like time together, like you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever had this where you like meet someone and you had a great time with them and then you’re like, I never, I never saw them again, right? Like,

Sarah (10:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so true.

Yeah.

Pam (10:58)
because there’s no like, I’m going to see you tomorrow because we’re both going to be in the same place.

Sarah (11:05)
Yeah, and honestly, that’s the only thing that I miss about working in an organization is those friendships. even like we would joke about having a work wife, right? Which is like, you’re your best friend at work. You have a handful of people and you have lunch together and coffees and stuff. So indeed working from home, that’s one of the challenges. But you talked about how when people are younger, it’s so much easier to make friends.

Pam (11:17)
Yeah.

Sarah (11:33)
And I read something interesting, which said for kids, they only need one thing in common with another kid to be their friend. So it’s like, we’re both, we both play soccer. We’re friends. We’re both in the choir. We’re friends. We’re both in grade five. We’re friends. And I see this with my kids, especially when they were younger and now they’re teens. So it’s, or one of them is a teen. they become more discerning, but you know, as a little kid, it’s like you’re a

Pam (11:42)
wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (12:02)
They’re at day camp for one day. Oh, I have five new friends. Like so amazing, right? So free. And then as we get older, subconsciously we’re coming up, we were like, no, I need more than one thing in common. need like a number of things. So I thought that was really interesting.

Pam (12:05)
You

Yeah.

we don’t ever give ourselves the opportunity to have all those things in common. Like if you meet someone and you have one thing in common, go with that. Like do that thing with that person and talk to them and you’re going to find more things that you have in common. You don’t have to meet them and be like a hundred percent aligned with everything that has ever happened to make them a friend.

Sarah (12:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Of course, yeah,

and you don’t even have to have more things in common because you’ll maybe evolve new interests and learn things from this other person and vice versa.

Pam (12:53)
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so the hard part about doing that, about like meeting someone and then actually turning it into a friendship. There’s so many things. Like we said, the time factor is a huge one. But I think like we’re all, like we all understand that you will make time for the things that are important to you if you really want to, like you will. It’s very easy to blame.

Sarah (13:02)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (13:22)
lack of time for a lot of things and obviously this is not counting like, you know, yes especially like parents. You have a lot of obligations that require your time of course, but you still have a life, right? Like you’re still making time to have friends and to do activities that you want to do. So let’s set time aside because I think that people can find an hour in a week to make friends, right? But I think there’s so many like mental blocks or fears

Sarah (13:44)
Yeah.

Mm.

Pam (13:52)
that stop us from reaching out to people and making connections. Before I went to walk with my new friend the other day, I had a lot of fears about like, what are we gonna talk about? Am I gonna be weird? Am I gonna say something that turns them off? What happens if we go and they have a good time and I don’t, and then they wanna be my friend and I don’t wanna be their friend anymore?

Sarah (14:07)
Ha.

Pam (14:22)
Like there’s so many things that your brain conjures up that are like easy excuses to not pursue friendship.

Sarah (14:31)
It’s all the things that might go wrong.

Pam (14:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. So one of the things that actually helps me the most with that is realizing that everybody feels that. Right? Like your brain is not any weirder than their brain. They’re going through the same thing. They’re having the same fears. You know, yeah, maybe they’re not exactly the same. Like maybe some people have no concerns about whether the conversation will flow or whatever, but like they’re having their own fears. They’re having their own hangups. So like you just kind of have to be like, yep.

Sarah (15:01)
Yeah.

Pam (15:03)
I’m human, I’m a weirdo, that’s just life and I want to make friends.

Sarah (15:07)
Yeah,

yeah, and also, I think part of it is like, well, what’s the problem if then if you go and you’re like, I actually am not really that jazzed about building a relationship or friendship with this person, then you had a walk. And that’s it, you know, or if then they’re like, nah, I’m not gonna go out with her again. It’s like, it’s not really a big risk. And you might feel, you know, rejected or uncomfortable for five minutes after.

Pam (15:22)
Yeah? Right.

Yeah.

Sarah (15:36)
But when you think about it, it’s like, okay, moving on.

Pam (15:39)
Yeah.

I think we’re at a level of like self-acceptance that it doesn’t feel like a big deal, but I think for some people that could like that rejection could be a big deal. So I don’t want to gloss over that. So the fear of rejection, I think could be pretty big, but I think that’s an opportunity for people to build some confidence and some strength and to be like, okay, like if that…

Sarah (15:49)
Okay, that’s true. That’s true. That’s true. That’s true. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

if the rejection is painful, if that then I think you can you could view it as working that muscle, like building that muscle up and a reminder to keep trying, keep trying and getting to know more people. And if it’s not the right fit, then it’s just not the right fit. And there are so many there’s so many other people out there.

Pam (16:27)
Yeah.

Sarah (16:38)
who will want to be your friend. And there’s so many other people who also crave, like maybe feel lonely and they wanna have that. I had this one professor at university in my undergrad and she taught me World Religions. And I remember she was exasperated about something in the class and she said, all of you young people like,

you’re so worried about falling in love and being in a relationship and like you think that you need to be perfect. And you think you need to, know, before anybody is going to love you and you’re wrong. Look around in the street, look around in the bus, look at everybody who found somebody to love. They don’t act a certain way. They don’t look a certain way. They don’t talk a certain way. Everybody is just themselves and eventually they can find people to match them. And it’s this, I found it very,

you know, revelatory because at that age, I think I was more stuck in this idea of like, I, you know, need, I’m going to want to dress this way, look this way, conform in this way to find a partner to find a, you know, a great boyfriend. And then it made me realize, of course, you know, people, all kinds of people find love and, and why wouldn’t I? And it’s the same with friendships, right? So I think a lot of it is, is just knowing

be yourself. Like it sounds so easy. Just be yourself, but actually be yourself because other people are themselves. They’re also not perfect. They’re also not without quirks and imperfections, right? And they, they might really want to be your friend.

Pam (18:20)
Okay, so let’s talk about like actually meeting people, making friends. Like, how do we do that? You know, it just gets harder as we get older. Like we talked about the not having the forced time and being stuck on our phones, sitting on our couch all the time. Like the fact of the matter is that you actually have to go out and meet people. Like there’s no way around that.

Sarah (18:30)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (18:50)
you have to interact in the real world.

Sarah (18:53)
Yeah. So how do you do it? Like if you think about some of the more recent friends that you’ve made, how have you done that?

Pam (19:00)
Yeah.

So it’s all been through like other interactions, you know, like met somebody at an event or through a work thing or like my friend that I went on the walk with, she was my myofascial release therapist. So we, you we would talk while she was working on me for an hour every time. So we got to know each other through that and then just

So it’s kind of like taking interactions that maybe weren’t in a friend situation and then transitioning them to friends. But I’ve made friends through other people introducing me, like friends introducing me to friends. How about you?

Sarah (19:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So when I had kids, I met a lot of people through my kids. Because it’s the same thing you’re talking about that suddenly I was forced to be in these circumstances with these other parents, whether that’s swimming lessons or sports or whatever after school things. So that was a way to meet a lot of people. a couple of those friendships have lasted, but I’ll say a whole lot of them haven’t.

Yeah, and I don’t want to diminish you know, that there’s genuine. Yeah, there’s genuine value. And then it’s like, well, we don’t still talk. That’s interesting. So that’s something

Pam (20:25)
They’re kind of circumstantial, like.

The value, yeah.

Sarah (20:40)
through, I would say same as you, sometimes through work events. So specifically related to, there have been a few kind of more colleague type people who have become friends in some of the circles more related to like women in business, women in technology, personal branding, specifically for women. So some of those business owners or

professionals, I might have some sort of like synergy in terms of our values, which I can see maybe even, you you’re with your physical therapist, it’s like, you also have, I know something that’s really important to you is like health and well being. So that makes sense that you’d have a lot to talk about, right? So I think being active in like, finding my own place professionally in different working for different types of organizations.

Pam (21:21)
Yeah. Yep.

Sarah (21:35)
and then aligning myself with the kind of, you know, some of the people I meet there has been it. But it’s what you’re saying. I then have to, you know, send a LinkedIn message and say, oh, do you want to have a coffee sometime? Do you to Zoom chat sometime? And it is going out of my shell a little bit. It’s like taking those initial few meetings and then building on it.

Pam (21:58)
Yeah. And it doesn’t have to be a work specific event. Like you could volunteer with an organization and get to know people through that. I’ve even seen, I don’t know, I assume every town has this, but we have like a local Facebook group where everyone who lives here joins and you, you know, talk about like whatever the latest crime down the street is or whatever. But I’ve seen people post in there that are like, Hey, I’m, I’m interested in doing this. Is there anyone?

Sarah (22:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, we have that.

Pam (22:24)
else who is interested and wants to meet up. There’s a group of women that get together once a month and have dinner, just like it’s an open invite. Like they say, here’s where we’re going to be show up if you want to come like, you know, find finding people locally who have your same interests, you can do it in myriad ways, you just actually have to do it.

Sarah (22:37)
space.

Yeah, I love that. and that reminds me. Yeah, there are some local groups that I’ve… there’s one sort of women’s meetup group that I’ve been at and I wouldn’t say the people there are my friends yet, but they one or two of them might become my friends, but I still have that in person connection. And I’m able to talk about things that feel interesting to me. So that’s meaningful in that way. So I agree with you finding local things

Pam (23:02)
Yeah.

Sarah (23:15)
is good because then you’re showing up in your body and talking to other people in their body in real life about something.

Pam (23:21)
Yeah. And the point that you just made was that you have to like make that move to invite them to do something. And that’s probably the hardest part, right? Like you meet them and you have a great time and then you go home and you’re like, gosh, I really want to hang out with that person again. And then you never do because it’s hard. It’s so awkward to reach out and be like, hey, do you want to be my friend?

Sarah (23:28)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

It’s hard, yeah.

Yeah. But, but, but it doesn’t like, have you received phone calls from some like, have you been on the receiving end when you’ve gotten those calls before?

Pam (23:56)
I’m sure that I have, maybe not in a while, but I would say probably from my best friend, she was the aggressor. She reached out to me and wanted to get together. But it’s only a good feeling if someone wants to be your friend.

Sarah (24:00)
Yeah.

Wow.

Yes.

And I mean, now she’s your best friend. So just imagine if she was like, no, Pam, Pam won’t want to or I feel too nervous. Right? It’s so amazing. And now you have this great friendship. So

Pam (24:18)
Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to like help get over some of that awkwardness, some of the things that you can do are like to make it a low stakes ask, you know? Just coffee. It doesn’t have to be a whole thing. It can be a group get together. You know, if you guys have friends in common, try and organize something so that you’re getting together again, but it’s not one on one if that feels awkward.

Sarah (24:41)
Yeah.

I think I love what you’re saying about coffee. I think also a walk is a great idea because a lot of research has shown that like when we’re walking with people, it actually really opens our communication channel and we can feel more open and more comfortable than when we’re sitting down facing each other with a cup of coffee. So I think going for a walk is a great idea. And I also think even in this way, technology can be helpful.

Pam (25:13)
Yes.

Sarah (25:24)
if you want to send a couple of texts before with like, hey, I, you know, I read this funny article or, you know, I just read this book or, you know what I mean? Just making contact about something that maybe you have a shared interest about and sharing a resource, sharing an idea, checking in with them, just calling to say hi and like, how’s everything going? Say something’s happening in the news or in the weather or in your community. Just say, how are you doing with all of this? I’ve been.

of you, you you crossed my mind today, can be a way to kind of create some warmth and connection before you make the ask.

Pam (26:03)
Yeah, I’m cringing inside with all of those, like, the vulnerability of saying to someone that you’re not even friends with, was thinking about you.

Sarah (26:16)
Yeah, or how about you? Yeah, that sounds a little intense. Maybe you maybe you cross you cross my mind not like all day and all night.

Pam (26:17)
Like.

I

think

it’s great. It’s just all of the stuff that we’re talking about is so sensitive and it makes you feel like an awkward teenager. Right? Like we think like, I’m 45, I’m above all of this. And then as soon as you go to make a friend, you are 12 years old again and you’ve got a zit on the end of your nose and you think everyone thinks you’re a freak.

Sarah (26:26)
Yeah.

You

Mm.

not there, so.

Yeah.

Pam (26:50)
Like, I just want to like keep reiterating that this it is hard. It’s going to feel weird. It’s gonna bring up all kinds of feelings for you. And like, you just kind of have to do it anyway. And it gets easier.

Sarah (27:03)
Mm-hmm.

It really does get easier I think for example, I don’t find it as awkward, right? I definitely could still feel vulnerable. I did recently reach out to somebody new and I felt, I felt shy. I felt like a little nervous to do it. And I don’t know if shy is the right word, but I felt a little nervous. So I definitely understand. And I could imagine myself saying, Hey, it was, you know, great chatting with you.

Pam (27:11)
Okay.

Sarah (27:32)
I was thinking we could go for a walk sometime. I’d love to get to know you more. I think I could say that without feeling too overwhelmed with it. But I think that I’ve, I think that I maybe have quite like a good amount of practice. I don’t want to toot my own horn too much, but I think I have a pretty good amount of practice. So, but I say that just to say that to your point, I think it gets easier.

Pam (27:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, it definitely does.

Sarah (28:02)
Right? And I think part of it, so what I wanted to talk about here is that the best friendships and relationships let you be more of yourself. Like that’s when we’re like, why is friendship important? It’s like, because you can be you and be seen and be accepted, right? And you can see someone else and accept them. So I think that like a big,

Pam (28:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah (28:31)
thing that feels important to me to emphasize is that you want to be your honest self, like you want to show up as you and that means you don’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to get your words, right? You don’t have to have all your life figured out. You don’t have to be, you know, have no problems, no skin problems, no money problems. Like, like just be a normal human person and, and find someone if there’s someone that you’re like around them, like check in with yourself, be like, wow, I’d like

Pam (28:52)
Yeah.

Sarah (29:00)
I feel interested in them. I feel good when I’m around them. I feel like I want to know more about them or be in their presence. It’s like a felt thing. Then say to them like, it would be cool to spend a little time together.

Pam (29:15)
Yeah. And you can be honest, like you were saying, you know, be yourself, but like, you can be like, hey, this feels a little awkward, but would you like to get together for coffee? Like you can let them know that you’re feeling weird about it. And, that kind of takes some of the edge off and just like acknowledges that this is hard and weird and I’m weird and you’re weird. You know, this is all, this is all new.

Sarah (29:25)
Thank

Thank

Yeah.

Yeah. And I also think that, um, I believe if you’re coming from a place where you feel like, Oh, I am being myself and I felt like myself when I was with them, then they are going, most likely going to think, great, thank you for texting me. I would love to go on and walk with you. Right. Because you’re not just coming up with some, you know, strategy of why you want to, you know what I mean?

Pam (29:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (30:11)
connect with this person like it’s genuinely you felt good and you are being you then they’re most likely going to reciprocate.

Pam (30:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (30:21)
yeah, then I think going back to what you were saying before about where do we find these people? It’s like, think about, well, what makes, you feel good and alive right now? You know, it’s like doing a values assessment for yourself right now in terms of who you are, if you’re in your forties or thirties or fifties, whatever, right? Right now in your life, like what’s happening that’s interesting for you, what goals feel important to you.

Pam (30:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah (30:49)
What do you like talking about? Right? What are your interests right now? What are the things going on in the world that you care about? And do those things. And like, find places to do those things and talk about them and kind of be in them. And then when you look around, you’ll be like, these people also are in the same space as me.

Pam (31:18)
Yeah, like a lot of people may say like, I want to go do this thing, but I need a friend to do this thing with. And that’s backwards. You need to go do the thing and you’ll meet the… you know, like, let’s say you are into golf, but you don’t have a golf partner. Like there are groups of people that go golf and then they will fill you in their group with you to make it a full group. Or you can, you know, go to a book club that

Sarah (31:25)
Okay.

And then, yeah.

Pam (31:47)
you don’t know anyone else there, like go do these activities that you’re into and you will meet people that are also into them. You can’t wait to meet the people that are into the thing that you’re into and then go do it.

Sarah (31:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that’s such a good point because I think ultimately why do we want friendship? We want to feel that we belong. And so you can find those spaces where you will find and help create those spaces where you will belong. But the first step is to know well what does interest you and how do you want to spend your time and what kinds of things do you want to talk about? And then you can you can find openings there and then those people will want you.

Pam (32:05)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (32:30)
Yeah.

Pam (32:33)
Okay, so we’ve made the first move, we’ve set up a friend date, and then the hard part is actually, showing up there and having good conversation and feeling like, you know, you connect on that time that you’re spending together. And I think some of the mistakes that people make are going to…

Sarah (32:44)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (32:58)
do things together where there’s not an opportunity for interaction. Like, you if you go to like a comedy show, or you go to a movie together, you’re not, you’re not interacting, you’re sitting next to each other while something is happening. So I would advise people, like you said, taking a walk, I think is the best hands down, like best way, because you’re not staring at each other. It’s okay if there’s some silence, because you’re still walking and enjoying nature, and that’s And I think preparing.

Sarah (33:06)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Right.

Pam (33:28)
for conversation is a big thing. I was listening to a podcast this morning with an interview by an author named Alison Woods-Brooks. Her book is called Talk, The Science of Conversations and the Art of Being Ourselves. And she was talking about how when you go on a date or you go out with a new friend, you put a bunch of effort into your outfit and your hair and your makeup and the activity that you’re gonna do and all this stuff.

And then you just show up there with no plan about what you’re gonna talk about. Like we just assume that conversation is gonna flow and it does with friends that you’ve had for a long time, but when there’s someone new, it takes some more effort and you have to have some like planning to go into it. So I would come prepared with a couple of questions that you wanna ask them, things you wanna learn about them.

Sarah (34:00)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Pam (34:24)
stories of your

Sarah (34:24)
so good.

Pam (34:25)
own, like whatever that is, like don’t rely on yourself in the moment to be brilliant and come up with conversation. Maybe you don’t need what you planned, but like having it available will be really helpful.

Sarah (34:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that and I love that the, you know, thinking about how you might want to engage them and the kinds of questions you wanted to ask them. I think that’s a great idea. something that just came up for me is you said like with old friends, you might not need that. But I think with old friends as well, having some questions in mind is actually a good thing because in some friendships, we can fall into a rut of talking about the same things all the time.

Assuming that we know everything about each other already. So in fact just this past weekend I was at a friend of mine she left the city and moved to a beautiful house in the country and seven of us there were seven women there for the weekend made a great time and I brought conversation cards. Which actually I had used I sometimes use at work events as like icebreakers So we did them during dinner and I wanted to make it super low stress. So I’m like

Pam (35:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (35:36)
Pick a card if you hate it, just pick another card and keep flipping through till you find one you like. Read the question out loud and then anyone who wants to answer can answer. So I liked that because the way I set it up because it wasn’t about making this a pressure full, you know, stressful situation, but it was an opportunity where people felt safe. Anyone who wanted to share. And then we were forced.

Pam (35:53)
Yeah.

Sarah (36:02)
not forced to, but we were invited to talk about things that we really wouldn’t have. Like some of the questions were, you know, what, what was the worst job you’ve ever had? So there were some hilarious conversations, you can imagine, that came up about that and things that we had forgotten about, even though we’ve known each other for so long. And, you know, what was your grandmother’s signature dish? If you could live in an era, in any era, which era would you choose and why?

Pam (36:20)
Yeah.

Sarah (36:31)
So these were just really fun ways to get everyone talking and laughing and certainly brought a different type of conversation than we would have had. We certainly would have been able to fill the, it wouldn’t have been silent, but I think there was sort of a different type of conversation and everyone really appreciated it. At first, I think a few people laughed when I pulled it out, cause it’s like so me that I would like bring that. But in the end,

I think everyone really liked it. We had a good laugh and it was something different. So I think even with old friends, even with family, actually we’ve done those types of cards at family events with grandparents. Like my parents or my husband’s parents and that’s been very fun. Like the grandparents have loved it. Cause it allows everyone different generations, different ages like to hear my kids come up with their answers is really funny.

Pam (37:04)
Yeah.

Sarah (37:31)
And, and yeah, so anyways, all that to say, our friendships, we want to think about what we want to contribute and what we want to talk about, not in a controlling way, but in a thoughtful way. And we can do that with new friends and old friends.

Pam (37:45)
Yes.

Yeah, I agree. I use conversation cards with CK. We’ve been together for 16 years. And I will take one like, because we do a couple walks a day. So I will take a card and ask him a question, and he’ll give me his answer. And then I give mine and it always sparks really great conversation. So you’re totally right that all friendships need help with conversation and with maintaining that.

Sarah (37:52)
Do you?

Pam (38:12)
connection and learning new things about each other. There’s always an opportunity for that.

Sarah (38:16)
It’s

so true because if you were on your first date with CK would be like, my gosh, tell me everything about your childhood. And you know what I mean? Like, like really wanting to get to know the person that you’ve been with them 15, 16 years. It’s just you think, not you think, but one tends to think they know everything about the partner. So it’s great to it’s great to be to have those prompts. Yes.

Pam (38:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and we change, right?

Sarah (38:44)
Yeah, we change and we’ll give a different answer. It’s like, yesterday I thought this, I would think this is the place I’d want to visit, but today I think this is the place I want to visit.

Pam (38:53)
Yeah.

Another thing that I do, because I love lists, is I have notes on my phone for each of the people that I talk to regularly. whenever I think of something that I want to tell them about, I note it in there. I’m not a big texter. I hate having a meaningful conversation over text. I would rather save a month’s worth of conversation and see you in person and do it all together. Don’t text me a meaningful conversation.

Sarah (39:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pam (39:23)
So I keep a list of like everything that pops in my head that I want to tell this person or story that happened or like whatever so that then when I do see them, yeah, I pull out my phone and I look at a list and I’m like, I want to remember all the things that I want to talk to you about. But you can do that with friends old and new. Like if you’re going to get together with a new person and you’re worried about things that you’re going to talk about for the time leading up to it, every time you think about something that would be interesting to know about them or that you want to tell them, jot down a note.

Sarah (39:52)
I love it. That’s great. Were there any other good tips that came from that podcast you listened to?

Pam (39:59)
I had to turn it off so that we could record.

So I don’t know, but it’s Armchair Expert. yeah, it’s that thing that she was talking about about conversation. She calls it the myth of naturalness, meaning that like we think that because we talk all day long and we’ve been doing it our entire lives that we’re good at it, but we’re not, we just do it. That doesn’t mean that we’re expert communicators or that we’re great at conversation. Like we actually do need to put some work into it.

Sarah (40:12)
Mmm.

Pam (40:29)
And that’s not contrived, that’s not fake to put effort into conversation. It’s necessary. We put effort into everything else. Why wouldn’t we put it into the most meaningful thing that we do with other humans?

Sarah (40:32)
Yeah.

love that. Great. And I can see that as a great resource for folks who might be gearing up to set up some friend dates. Yeah, good idea.

Pam (40:56)
Okay, so after you have had a friend date, you got to follow through, you got to follow up, you got to make the next one because so often it fizzles out, right? You have a great time and then you both get busy and you never see each other again. So if this is something that’s important to you, you have to make it a priority to continue the connection back to that forced time together thing that we benefit from when we’re younger. We don’t have that anymore.

Sarah (41:05)
the next move.

Pam (41:25)
So you have to force the time together.

Sarah (41:29)
Yeah, I think that’s why for folks who are fortunate to land on a club or a group, that’s so beneficial because you’ll have that cyclical kind of event coming up. that’s a really big, I mean, I’m not really part of a lot of clubs. I’ve wanted to be part of a book club for so long and it just never really manifests for me. I guess I could create one, but anyways, all that to say.

I’m not really part of a lot of clubs, but I love the idea of that because that’d be like, okay, great. I’ll see you next week or next week or I’ll see you next month, whatever it is. So I think that if you’re really longing for more friendships, that’s a really great way to do it. Yeah. And whether that’s, you know, exercise class, gardening club, whatever it is, if you’re guaranteed those meetups, what a win.

Pam (41:59)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

definitely.

One of your notes is focusing on quality over quantity. And I think like what comes up for me when I see that is absolutely we want quality, but I think you have to like go for quantity and then narrow it down to quality. Does that make sense?

Sarah (42:44)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s something that what I see in certainly my clients who tend to be in like their 30s or 40s or above naturally are more discerning about their relationships. And that’s because we do have more demands on our time. And so,

we tend to be looking for good relationships where we can be ourselves, where we can have more than surface level conversations. And like no drama, like for, know, who has time for that? So just genuine connection, no drama, genuine support. So that’s definitely a big trend. So when I think about what…

Pam (43:22)
Yes.

Sarah (43:36)
people are looking for at this age. think about quality over quantity. think flexibility because we are busy. And so some of my closest friends, we don’t talk every day. We don’t talk every week. We don’t talk every month. Sometimes it can be years. And then how can you pick back up and have that connection? you can in certain relationships. so I think that that sort of flexibility and understanding

is so important and just so appreciated.

Pam (44:09)
Yeah, so important. And yeah, you hear so many people like, well, I reached out twice and they didn’t have time to get together. So I’m done with them. Like we are really busy and everybody’s got a lot going on. And if you’re in that situation, if you’ve reached out a couple of times and they haven’t been able to make plans with you, you can just ask like, Hey, do you want me to keep following up? Do you want me to keep trying or is this over? Like, are we, are we not going to get together?

Sarah (44:26)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I agree with you. And I also think on the flip side, if you’ve been the one to not get back to people, because that happens to me. And then it’s almost like it’s a perfectionist, like a perfectionist holding yourself to this perfectionist friendship kind of standard. Like I better not ever screw up. I better not ever hurt them. I better not, you know, ever take three months to get back to their text. You know, I better not.

Pam (44:43)
Yeah.

Sarah (45:04)
forget them if they’re going through a hard time. I better not, I better make enough of an effort and like holding ourselves to all these high standards. And I try to be a great friend and I’ve screwed up so many times in those ways, right? Just because of life is busy and I have a lot of things on my mind and in my heart. So I think giving myself grace for that, forgiving myself. And then sometimes I’ll…

reach out to someone and like, my gosh, like you called me and it was six months ago and this was going on in your life. And I felt so bad that I didn’t get back to you. And they’re like, that’s fine. Like, I’m so glad to hear from you right now. You know, and I’ve done the same to other friends too. I’m like, my gosh, don’t worry. So I think that, I think that that kind of, this is getting back to this idea of, you know, flexibility and understanding.

Pam (45:44)
Yeah.

Sarah (45:58)
like guilt and perfectionism can trigger such a cycle. And like, it’s just not useful. We know this, it’s not useful for our work and it’s certainly not useful for our friendships. So if you’re lucky enough to have like a person you love them, you like them, you’ve got a good friendship and time goes on or they weren’t there for you in a certain moment, but they wanna be there. Like I’ll speak for myself, they weren’t there for me in a certain moment, but they wanna be there for me now. If I can forgive that, I really try to because…

I’m sure I’ve made the same mistake as well. And I want to be forgiven for that too, because I just feel like life is too short. So if we have those great friendships, where can we have more flexibility and understanding? I’m not saying we should be walked on, it’s not about that, but do know what I mean? yeah, I think that the idea of perfectionism in friendship is like a good one to evaluate and just think we’re all really doing our best with really

Pam (46:42)
Of course

Sarah (46:55)
busy lives and a lot of our own goals and messes to deal with. And so where can we be easy with each other in service of having lots of friends or good friends?

Pam (47:06)
Yeah. I was just reading the other day that people not responding to texts is an anxiety symptom. That like you get a text and then you’re like, I have to craft a response and say the right thing. And then you get overwhelmed and then you’re like, okay, I’ll do it later. And then you close it and then it’s gone. You never get back to the person.

Sarah (47:12)
Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah, I get that. Yeah.

And then I’ve done that. And then it’s like, my gosh, it’s been two weeks. How can I face it? Yeah.

Pam (47:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

So that’s another time where you were like, just be honest, just be like, Hey, I got your text. I got overwhelmed. here’s what I should have like.

Sarah (47:39)
Yeah. Or like, yeah.

Or like, my gosh, this slipped through the cracks, but I was so happy to hear from you. Here’s my answer. And probably the person will think, great. Hi.

Pam (47:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, exactly.

Yeah, because they’ve done it too. Yeah.

Sarah (47:54)
Yes. Yeah, I think people

generally if again, if you’re in a healthy friendship, people are generally more understanding than we tend, you know, then we fear. Yeah.

Pam (48:04)
Yeah, yeah.

We have friends that we would love to see more often, but we end up seeing each other like once a year. And we try to, we end up trying to get together during the holidays, because that’s when everybody has more time off of from work and everything. last year we had plans to get together. They were going to come over to our house for a couple of days. And like a day and a half before they were supposed to come, he texted me and he was like, please do not hate me. Like,

Would you hate me forever if we cancel and reschedule? And I was like, of course not. You have stuff. I get it. He was totally overwhelmed with work. And I was like, it’s fine. Don’t make things bigger than they need to be, especially in a good relationship.

Sarah (48:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, because when you think about it, that’s what friends are for, is like to understand that.

Pam (48:55)
Yeah. And like, a… Right. What a horrible

person would I be if I was like, no, I hate you forever because you can’t come to my house.

Sarah (49:05)
but I understand his fear as well. Because sometimes people do react that way.

Pam (49:07)
Yeah, of course.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk about the sunsetting of friendships, whether it is intentional or accidental, or just life. I think. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Sarah (49:12)
Yeah. Aww.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, whether you’re setting the sun on the friendship or someone is setting the sun on you can

happen in different ways.

Pam (49:34)
It can, like you were talking about, you you made friends when your kids were younger because activities or, meeting them at school or parent events or whatever. And then your kids get older, you’re not around those people anymore. So your lives just kind of go in separate ways. And I think that a lot of times people think that that’s a failure or think about it negatively or like, like it wasn’t meaningful. But I think that friendships just like every time we talk now, I feel like we’re talking about cycles.

and seasons, like relationships go through cycles and seasons and people come into your life and they go out and that’s just how life is. There’s, that doesn’t mean that the friendship wasn’t valuable or important.

Sarah (50:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s funny you just reminded me. I mean, it’s such a cliche, but I don’t know. What do you think of this expression? That friends come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime.

Pam (50:32)
Yeah. I mean, it’s true. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah (50:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

And yeah, it’s funny because it is. It’s a cycle. And at the same time, that’s something that I feel pain about some friendships that have ended. So maybe that’s some vulnerability there. But even though I know logically, I don’t have space and time for every person who’s been in my life as a friend. mean, it just wouldn’t make sense, right?

But when I think back, wow, I was so close with this person and now they’re not in my life anymore, I can feel sad about that. One part of me can feel sad about that, for sure.

Pam (51:12)
Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I get, like when you were talking about the friends that you have, that you’ve had some since you were in school, I have a couple of people that I went to high school with that I could call, you know, if I wanted to, but we don’t, we never reach out. If we happen to be in the same town at the same time, we’ll get together, but we’re not close like that. I still think of them very fondly and I feel like they’re my close friends, but we haven’t spoken in years.

So I get jealousy a little bit when I hear that. Like I wish that I had that 30 year friendship and that history. So I get that feeling of like, that person was in my life and now they’re not anymore. I also think that sometimes we can idealize past friendships. Like I have people that I was friends with when I worked in a…

an office job before and it was like, God, we had so much fun together and, you know, we always were laughing and doing crazy things or whatever. And it’s like, probably doesn’t fit in my life now. Like they were, they were the circumstantial friends and I could be sad about not being close with them anymore. But I also just appreciate what they were.

Sarah (52:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I mean were the kinds of friendships you wanted to have then.

Pam (52:36)
Yeah, exactly.