Learn about the concept of the window of tolerance for stress and how to build a foundation that helps you manage stress more effectively.

Takeaways

• Building a strong foundation of self-care is crucial for managing stress.
• Setting boundaries is essential for protecting our mental health.
• Self-awareness is key to recognizing when we are stressed.
• Nutrition and sleep significantly impact our ability to manage stress.
• Taking breaks and allowing for unwinding time can help reset our minds.
• Experimenting with different strategies can lead to better stress management.

Links, Corrections, and Whatnot

Pam’s menu plan newsletter: https://makingiteasy.substack.com/

Insight Timer: https://insighttimer.com/

Hire Sarah here: https://www.sarahlang.ca/

Other Ways to Listen & Subscribe

APPLE PODCASTS

SPOTIFY

Transcript

This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

Pam (00:00)
Today we wanted to talk about stress and the kind of toll that it takes on us, some coping strategies that we have to deal with it, and this topic that I found really interesting that Sarah brought up because she teaches it with some of her clients, and it’s called the window of tolerance.

So we’re gonna dig into that today, but given the kind of state of the world right now, it’s a really apropos conversation. And Sarah, you had an experience last night and this morning that is kind of perfect for the topic that we’re talking about today.

Sarah (00:36)
It is and the experience to bottom line the experience I felt a lot of stress So we had this topic planned and it was in our agenda and then last night for a series combination of scheduling issues things going on in the home that just felt Stressful a lot of things to juggle a lot of balls in the air

And then my thoughts and feelings about some of the things that are going on with politics, with the election. I was reading some articles and my heart was racing. This was before bed. And then I thought, okay, it’s fine. Not it’s fine. Like I knew they were problems, but I thought it is what it is. Go to bed now. So I got ready for bed. I lay in bed. I was reading my novel. You read this novel as well. Demon Copperhead. I’m getting near the end. So it’s fabulous book, super into it, which is one of my major

stress coping strategies as novels and As I was reading it all of a sudden they felt my heart starting to beat Harder and harder. I started feeling like really anxious, but I didn’t even know it was anxiety in the moment because it just kind of hit me So I thought well, I’m feeling sick. Something’s going on in my body. I’m feeling sick So my heart was racing. I felt like my my legs were kind of shaking because I was sort of shivering

and then I just started feeling really flustered and really stressed. then finally, you know, started chatting with my husband who obviously noticed and he’s like, I think you’re freaking out. And, I was, he was correct. I was, and, you know, so kind of talked about it, moved through it somewhat and then realized, I’m, I’m panicking right now. I’m panicking. And I didn’t realize, cause it kind of came after I was feeling stressed.

Pam (02:15)
You

Yeah.

Sarah (02:33)
So I was feeling stressed and I thought I’m fine. Like I got ready for bed. did all these things and then all of a sudden this panic set in. So it actually took me some time because I haven’t had a moment. I’ve certainly had those moments in the past, but I haven’t been having them regularly. Like any kind of feeling of panic or panic attack. I have, it’s been, you know, I’m knocking on my head right now, but you know, gratefully it’s, it’s been some time. And so I was not anticipating it. and lo and behold, there it was. So once I,

Pam (02:53)
you

Sarah (03:03)
kind of identified it with my husband and sort of did some breathing. And then I thought, okay, I think I’m okay. I’m just gonna read. But at that point, my whole system had been woken up. So I was, my adrenaline, was like, I am wide awake. So I must have read another 70 pages. I was just like, well, I’m wide awake now. I kind of gotten up and cooked a whole meal. was just like.

Pam (03:16)
Yeah. Your adrenaline is… Yeah.

You

Sarah (03:32)
which is very unusual for me in the middle of the night, but I realized, yeah, my system had woken up from the adrenaline. So all of that to say, I went back to, I did fall asleep, which is great. I woke up, it was a fresh day and I looked at my calendar and I thought, my gosh, Pam and I, the name of this episode that we mapped out was how Pam and Sarah managed stress. And my immediate thought was,

Pam (03:37)
Yeah.

Sarah (04:01)
Who am I to talk about this? When I was up half the night derailed by stress.

Pam (04:08)
Yeah, the email that you sent me, you said I’m a hypocrite.

Sarah (04:11)
I’m a hypocrite. Yeah, I feel like a hypocrite. And then I thought, no, I’m human. I’m human. And maybe I’m a great person to talk about it because I experience it. I experience it like you do and like all of us do. So I definitely, yeah, I definitely have a lot to say on the topic and

Pam (04:13)
Yeah.

Right.

Sarah (04:39)
Also, knew I would benefit because for a moment I thought, should I cancel? Then I thought, well, one thing that makes me feel better, and we’re going to talk about this, like self-awareness and knowing what works for us. One thing that makes me feel better is being with people that I like, that I feel that I get me and I can be honest and also doing work that feels meaningful. And for me, this is this felt this feels meaningful to talk about this and share my experiences, hear your experiences and ideas.

and hopefully listeners who tune in will receive some kind of solace or comfort or ideas or feeling like they’re not alone if they feel stressed too. So I thought, okay, let’s do it. So here we are.

Pam (05:24)
Perfect, yeah, I’m glad that you didn’t decide to cancel. I think you’re right that nobody wants to hear from someone who’s got it all together, right? Like we are human, we do have stress, sometimes more than others. And you don’t know how to deal with stress because you’ve never had it. And so it’s like, well, you just deal with it. Like you learn to deal with stress by going through it and by exercising.

Sarah (05:34)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (05:53)
the muscle of recovering and from learning what works for you and trying different things because what works for one person isn’t going to be the same thing that works for someone else. So I’m glad that we’re here and we’re talking about this. I think it’s a really important topic right now, kind of regardless of where people are at on the political spectrum or what’s going on in their lives. There’s a lot of

Sarah (06:07)
Yep.

Pam (06:19)
like existential stress right now, there’s economic stress, there’s, you know, it just feels like everyone’s kind of at this like heightened state all the time. So I think that talking about this and giving people some tools and ideas and, you know, kind of getting us all to like take it down a level so that we can actually make change and make.

Sarah (06:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (06:46)
progress in the places that we want to because we can’t operate at our best when we are anxious and when we are overwhelmed and when we’ve got too much going on in our brains. Like we’re just not at our best, right? I know I’m not. If I’m stressed out, there’s no way I’m making good decisions and doing what’s beneficial for the world. So kind of like bringing it down a notch and like a collective deep breath and let’s reset and

Sarah (06:48)
Mm-hmm.

No. No.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (07:14)
let’s move forward in a productive way.

Sarah (07:16)
for sure and develop the resources to do it over and over again. The resetting over and over again, because as you say, there’s a lot to be stressed about, right? For different people, there’s a lot to be stressed about. And so having a stress response and that manifests differently for different people, but noting it, learning to work with it so that you can manage it effectively.

Pam (07:21)
Yeah, exactly.

Sarah (07:46)
will help.

Pam (07:50)
Okay, so do you want to teach me about this topic, the window of tolerance? That was a phrase that I had never heard when you put it on our list of topics and I found it so interesting. So teach me.

Sarah (07:56)
Yeah.

Absolutely. So the window of tolerance is a model or a concept that I regularly share with my clients and I share it with many of my leadership students as well when we’re talking about clear communication and presentation, executive presentations, because it really applies to exactly what you were saying before around when we do our best work.

So the window of tolerance is a concept. It was developed by Dr. Dan Siegel. And what he’s explaining to us is a window. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, you can see I’m using my hands to kind of show a block of space. when you’re within that window of space, you’re performing at your best. And that window of space contains the optimal amount of stress to kind of move you forward. So in fact,

We don’t want zero stress in our lives. We don’t want a stress free life because that would be very dull and boring. We want the right amount of stress that’s gonna motivate us, right? Some people might call that challenge. We want novelty, we want challenge, we want opportunities to grow, to thrive, and that can be considered stress. So when we’re within this window of tolerance, within this band, we’re performing at our best. We’re challenged.

and we have the resources to meet those challenges and succeed. And if we don’t knock it out of the park, we can recover. we’re within our tolerance, within our window of tolerance. The trick is when there’s too much stress, we actually pop out of the window. We can go above it or below it. And that’s considered being outside of our window of tolerance. So we have too much stress.

and we’re not functioning at our best anymore. And in fact, in either of these spaces above or below, we’ve moved into fight or flight mode or survival mode. So too much stress takes us out of our window. Above the window is called hyper arousal. So this is one manifestation of survival mode. And this is characterized as anxiety, panic,

an inability to think creatively or big picture. It’s kind of just like zoning in on the one issue and feeling really overwhelmed by it. And in that space, are not, well, first of all, we feel crappy. It does not feel good. And secondly, the quality of our work suffers. And I don’t just mean in the workplace. mean in the home as well, being able to take care of ourselves or family, take care of our home.

you know, do whatever goals we have for us. We’re not doing well because we’re anxious. And then below the window is called hypo arousal. So we have hyper above, hypo arousal is below and that’s characterized more by feeling numb or depressed or just kind of you feel your system shutting down. And that’s another manifestation. And something interesting around this is that there are some individuals that tend to

sort of skew to one or the other, like some individuals are more likely to experience hyper or experience hypo. And then there’s others who experience both. And it really just depends on their baseline and the stimulus and what’s going on. But the key idea is the right amount of stress actually is a good thing for us. It gives our life meaning. It gives us the fuel that we want. Too much stress puts us in a survival mode.

hyper or hypo and we’re not feeling good and we’re not doing good work.

Pam (11:50)
As you’re talking about that, I’m remembering a time in my life when I was working full time. I had gone back to college. I was going to get a dietetics degree because I wanted to become a nutritionist. So working full time, going back to school, all of the life stuff. This was before we got CK’s anxiety dealt with. So I was dealing with him as well. I had a lot going on.

Sarah (11:56)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Pam (12:16)
And all I wanted was a break over the holidays. Like I just had my eye on that as the prize. Like just get through this, like school will be out, work will calm down. Like I’m just trying to get through to the holidays. And then we went over to CK’s parents’ house for Thanksgiving and they were like, we’re going on a trip to Korea for two weeks. Will you watch our dog? They had like just gotten a dog that was like not trained yet. It was still a puppy. Yes.

Sarah (12:21)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

my gosh, so a puppy, that’s no small ask. Merry Christmas.

Pam (12:45)
Yeah, they’re like, you can train it for us. And I, yeah, exactly. Like I lost it because my break now turned into now you have to get up, you know, in the middle of the night to take the dog out. Like it was this whole thing. And I just absolutely lost it. I like got, you know, I was like yelling at him. I’m like, they did this on purpose. They could have waited to get a dog. They wanted us to train it. And like, you know.

Sarah (12:53)
Yeah.

Uh-huh. Mm. Mm.

Pam (13:10)
I just totally blew the whole thing out of proportion because I was so far out of my window of tolerance, I couldn’t handle having a sweet puppy for two weeks. know? So I get that. It’s like life, it just kind of like adds on one thing, one thing, one thing, and then before you know it, it’s like I can’t handle anything now.

Sarah (13:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aww. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And so do you resonate with both the hyper and the hypo?

Pam (13:41)
yeah, in different ways, I think. I think I definitely tend more towards hyper, like when I am stressed, I kind of ramp up. And it’s like, you know, just push through, like I can just take care of it. And like I, my communication definitely gets poorer, like I get sharper and like angrier and faster with my communication.

Sarah (13:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (14:08)
but there’s, there’s definitely been times as well where I just shut down and kind of more go into that almost depressed state where, and I think it depends on the type of stress because with things that are stressful, but like you just have to keep going. Like you have to, like, I have to keep working. I have to keep, you know, you know, taking care of family or whatever it is. Like you almost have to continue to engage there.

Sarah (14:27)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (14:38)
Whereas there’s other things that are stressful, like I’m thinking about, if someone has a lot of like financial anxiety or something that they’re not actively engaging with, but it’s stressful, then it’s almost like just shut it out and shut down.

Sarah (14:51)
Yeah.

Hmm. It’s interesting when you said that, cause I was thinking, cause I relate to what you’re saying. Well, when I have a lot of stuff that I think I can control, whether I can control, then it, then it can be the hyper arousal. But if I think it’s out of my hands, like it’s a problem or something happening in the world and like, can’t really, I feel that I can’t touch it again. Both of those are perceptions. but in the moment I’m feeling like this is beyond me or I can’t control it. That might be more of the shutting down.

Pam (15:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

Same experience for me. Do you have any examples of being outside of your window of tolerance other than this morning or last night?

Sarah (15:35)
Well, other than last night, yeah, I mean, regularly, I will feel that way when I have when my schedule is too packed with work obligations and then wanting to be there for my kids. So they come home from school. They have homework. They have it. They’re at a different stage now. My kids, because they’re a little bit older, so they don’t need me in the way that they used to. But they need me in other ways to help with homework, to help with decision making.

to help unpack situations that have happened in their lives. So it’s a different kind of request of presence, which is a joy. I love being their mom and having that be a part of parenting, but that on top of those kinds of demands in the workplace as well, I might just end up feeling like, this is too much. And then I’ll end up snapping at them.

or feeling like, my gosh, this thing on Zoom, know, Zoom changed the settings again. I could, every time I went to the screen, the PowerPoint, I could no longer see the faces, like the video of the people. Then I’d go back to see their faces and then I couldn’t see them. And I was like, like, and then I spent, you know, 20 minutes Googling it. I’m on YouTube. I’m trying to figure it out. I’m looking at the Zoom Q &A, which is like 29 web pages of.

Pam (16:37)
you

Sarah (16:59)
Q&A and I couldn’t figure it out and I just had no tolerance for it. You know, I thought it was like so dramatic. yeah, similar just normal life examples when there’s too much and as you said, just one more problem and

Pam (17:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, my communication is the first thing that goes, I think, when I get overstressed. And then the problem is that then that creates more stress, right? Like you just said, you snap at your kids. And then of course, you feel terrible about snapping at your kids. So it just adds more to it. I’m remembering when we first moved in to our house a few years ago.

Sarah (17:17)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s the worst.

Pam (17:38)
there was a sound in the attic, like there was like a fan or something that was not set correctly. So it would make this really obnoxious buzz all night long. And so it was interfering with my sleep. And so I’m a little bit sleep deprived and the sound is really annoying and I’m really sensitive to sounds anyway. So it was just this problem, but we didn’t know what was causing the sound. So we didn’t know how to fix it or who to call.

Sarah (17:50)
Thanks

You

Mm-hmm.

Pam (18:05)
So I ended up calling, we have like a home warranty. So I thought, like they have a network of people that fix whatever, I’ll call them and they’ll know who to send out. So I do, call them and they send a guy and the guy like shows up, he spends seven minutes here and like is like, I can’t find it and leaves. And so we’ve now paid for this guy to come out and do nothing. And so I call the home warranty people back and I like lose it. I’m like, I pay you every month to, you know, to fix things and you’re not, and I just.

Sarah (18:25)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (18:34)
you know, this poor person who it’s not their problem, right? It’s not their job to listen to me complain. And then I feel, you know, that I feel bad about that. And it just like adds to the stress. So the things that we’re going to talk about today, it’s like, yes, stress happens, life happens, things are going to get out of your control, things are going to feel too much. The idea is not to eliminate stress because you can’t and you don’t want to like you just said, there’s good stress.

Sarah (18:34)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pam (19:04)
The idea is to develop tools so that you can reduce the impact that it has on you, your loved ones, the other people that you have to communicate with, so you don’t make the situation worse. And so that you can recover faster, feel better, get back to who you want to be, how you want to feel. And then also, I think that part of this conversation is gonna be that you can change your window of tolerance, that you can

Sarah (19:32)
Yes, you can what you can widen it. You can grow it. Yeah, no, I really like it. So I like what you’re saying about reducing the impact. Our goal is to talk about tools and ideas to reduce the impact of stress and also to reduce your own suffering. With the stress and I think even my example from last night is is a great example. I felt it and I should feel it. I was upset.

Pam (19:34)
You can widen it. Yeah. Great.

Right.

Right.

Sarah (19:59)
Right, I moved through it. And at the same time here, here I am. So I think in the past, my recovery has taken longer. And now because I’ve done work with stress, with anxiety, with self-awareness, with developing my own toolkit, certainly not that I’m immune. I’m super sensitive person. So I’m going to have a lot of responses to things, but I’m able to care for myself with some skill in those moments.

All right, so let’s talk about them, about these skills and ideas.

Pam (20:29)
Yes. Sleep was the first one that you have on your list here, which is obviously one of my favorites. One my passions is sleep. I actually got 10 hours of sleep last night.

Sarah (20:37)
one of your passions.

my gosh. my gosh. You had the opposite sleep to me then.

Pam (20:47)
I had the opposite sleep to you. actually woke up, took off my eye mask and the sun was out and CK was already out of bed and I was like, my God, what happened? I never sleep in like that. So I obviously needed it. But if you are super stressed out and not sleeping well, that’s a bad combination. Your sleep is going to be impacted by your stress and then your stress is gonna be impacted by your sleep. So it’s like this vicious cycle.

Sarah (20:54)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Pam (21:15)
So anything that you can do to prioritize your sleep, to have a routine around calming down before going to bed. We talked about a ton of tips in our episode, how to respect your sleep. But I love that it was the first thing you put on there because if you’re not rested, if you’re not feeling well, then everything else is harder. You can’t make good decisions when you’re exhausted.

Sarah (21:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I’m so much harder.

Yeah. And the comment about sleep really comes from like a broader bucket that I want to name, which is building like your baseline. So these are kind of daily practices, even when you’re not stressed, right? Even when you’re not hit with outside of your window, it’s like setting a foundation, like a stable baseline, which will help you handle stress.

Pam (21:58)
Right.

Sarah (22:08)
much more effectively. And so if we’re looking to build those foundations, I believe that, like you do, one of the foundations is really the sleep piece. So having your routine and doing the things you need to do to get as much rest as possible.

Pam (22:26)
I think what you just said is really important. So I want to focus on it for a second, which is that you need to do these practices when you are not in the heightened state of stress. You have to get the routine down. You have to put your focus on this stuff when you don’t need it so that when you do, it’s easier and it’s default. All right.

Sarah (22:30)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know how to do it. You have some evidence of how it works for you. Yeah.

Pam (22:55)
Right, because if you, like when you’re really stressed, if someone comes to you and goes, well, you should meditate. You just want to punch them in the face. Right. Okay. Yeah. The next one on your list is nutrition, which is another one of my huge points. So I love that you put it on here. I do a lot of meal prep ahead of time because…

Sarah (23:02)
100%.

Yeah, yeah, so true.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pam (23:22)
Nutrition is such a big deal for me. I don’t feel good when I don’t eat healthy meals and when I’m not kind of consistent with what I’m doing. And I don’t like the stress of like at the end of the day being like, what are we going to eat? I hate that. I hate that stress. So my tip there is to plan ahead as much as possible. I spend my weekends, you know, I pre-cook like beans and vegetables and some protein so that when I’m in the middle of a busy day,

Sarah (23:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (23:51)
I don’t have to think about what I’m gonna have for lunch. can just warm up something that’s already in the fridge rather than going in the pantry and eating a bag of chips because that is what I will do if I don’t have something prepped.

Sarah (23:56)
So along those lines, a plug for Pam’s new Substack called Making It Easy which is her meal plan, her weekly meal plan. It launched last week and I was part of the group of inaugural subscribers. And I can say honestly, we made

We’ve made two of the recipes. My kids like them. I liked them. And what is great about it is from my perspective as a user, you can speak more. It’s that you focus on whole foods and everything should be able to be made in around 30 to 40 minutes. So there’s not huge other, like it’s fairly healthy, but there’s not other like specific dietary, I don’t know.

Pam (24:40)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (24:53)
specifics around it. It just seems like basic whole foods, yummy and not too, doesn’t take too long to make, not too many ingredients. And one thing that we noticed is that they have like sauces to them. Cause sometimes I find I’ll just make like chicken and rice and it’s just plain. Whereas you’ll be like, no, do this, make this easy kind of sauce and put it on top. So yeah, so for anything you want to add about your meal plan.

Pam (25:19)
Yeah, well, no, I love hearing that. I love that feedback. I will drop a link in the show notes so people can get it if they want. Right now it’s free. So we’d love to have you guys subscribe. You’ll get at least five dinner recipes every week. And like you said, they are something that anyone can cook 30 to 45 minutes. They’re omnivore. If you are a vegetarian, you can omit the protein or sub it out with tofu or something else that

Sarah (25:22)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (25:45)
that would work. But yeah, they are they’re… They’re easy and their basics, but it’s, it’s like, delicious ease. Right? Yeah, so that’s the other thing that I do is every week, I plan ahead what we’re going to eat for dinner for the week ahead so that I only have to go to the grocery store once. So it’s just these like little ways to reduce my day to day stress. So

Sarah (25:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, delicious. Ooh, that’s a good, that’s a good subheading. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yes. So good.

Pam (26:14)
Because a big thing for me is like, you look at your day, I don’t know if this happens to you, but like you look at your day in the morning and you’re like, okay, I’ve got these appointments and these meetings and then, you like you kind of plan it all out. And then by like 11 o’clock, it’s all gone to hell because three other people have requested meetings, something moved and like your plan is gone, right? And that used to really throw me because it would be like, I had this plan and like I had to fit in.

Sarah (26:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Pam (26:43)
lunch at this point and then cooking dinner at this point and like it would really screw me up. And now because I I’ve like processed the other stuff, like processed the food and like taken the stress away from that, now I can be much more flexible in my day and I don’t get screwed up if my schedule changes or someone asks for something at the last minute that like now this is going to take me two hours to do. Like I can fit it in because I took off all the other stuff.

Sarah (26:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And again, it’s such a foundation. Like we all know this. Yeah, nutrition is important, but it really is. It really changes our mood. It changes how we feel about ourselves and it changes. I find like the quality of how, how I think I’m caring for myself. You know, so when I know that I’ve cooked something good for myself in the family, I just feel good about that. And like,

Pam (27:32)
Hmm. Yeah.

Sarah (27:41)
Okay, that was me nurturing myself and nurturing everybody in the family and that feels good. So I think nutrition, again, it’s like going back to the basics. If you want a stable baseline to manage stress, it’s caring for yourself and a really basic level is sleeping and having good nutrition. And so if you need help with that, because I do, because I’m not like Pam in terms of like being really organized with.

Pam (27:47)
Yeah.

Sarah (28:09)
with my food, like I’ve done it both ways. Sometimes I’ve been really organized and done a great job. And other times I’m ordering Uber Eats all the time and scrambling and like throwing things on a plate. like, you know, I really have a lot of experience with all of it. And I feel a lot better when I’m planning and cooking. And also I can’t spend really more than half an hour. So if you want some help, you should sign up for Pam’s List because she has some great recipes. You let her do it. Yeah.

Pam (28:35)
Let me do the work for you. I enjoy it.

Sarah (28:39)
She likes it, so yeah, we can benefit.

Pam (28:41)
Yes. Okay, what else?

Sarah (28:46)
next we have unwinding time. So this is, a reminder to carve out time for yourself, whatever you want to use that for. So whether that is going for a quick walk, whether that is, doing something with your hands, like some kind of cooking or crafting or making something, even tidying up can feel that way, but just taking a break from whatever your work tasks are.

to focus on something for yourself and having small incremental moments throughout the day. Like even before I met you, I had 30 minute break and I thought I’m gonna go out. So I took Lucky, I took my dog and we just walked around for 20 minutes and I really felt refreshed after that. So that’s just a small choice, but that small choice is a commitment to myself during the day.

Pam (29:32)
Yeah.

I like that. And you said they’re like tidying up, which at you know, first, you’re kind of like, well, why would cleaning be like a pocket of time for yourself? But I think the idea here is that anything that you do that feels nourishing or that you can approach as a positive for yourself, is this this time for you to rest or unwind or step away from

Sarah (29:47)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

away.

Pam (30:10)
the like hectic, you know, so it doesn’t have to be structured. It doesn’t have to be something specific. It can just be like, okay, I’ve got 15 minutes. I could look at Instagram or I could go play with my dog. Like which one of those is going to be better for me? Yeah. Exactly.

Sarah (30:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, play with your dog. Ding, ding, ding, play with your dog. Yeah, get off the gram.

Pam (30:33)
Yes. So you also have morning routine on here. We’ve talked about this a lot. It’s important to both of us. My morning routine has shifted quite a bit since we did our, was it our first episode where we talked about our morning routines? Yeah. So before my morning routine was journaling and coffee and it was very just like quiet, start the day in a reflective space. And now my first thing that I do in the morning is

Sarah (30:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (31:02)
workout. So whether that’s weights or walking or rowing, like that is my time. And I do still really like think of that as a reflective time because my mind still wanders and it it’s time alone. And it’s time where no one, you know, gets in contact with me and I’m not looking at email and it’s like, it’s self care, it absolutely is. And then journaling comes later. But it starts the day off on a positive note when I don’t get that it

Sarah (31:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (31:31)
it totally changes the vibe of my day and my mental health throughout that day. It’s a much more anxious day if I don’t get that hour to myself.

Sarah (31:40)
Yeah, interesting. yeah, same with me. I mean, my routine is this pretty much the same as when we discussed it, which is a journal meditation. And I use the insight timer app so we can share a link to that as well. I have so many amazing meditations there saved and I have favorites that I go to. And so I do meditation and then I write in my five minute journal.

If I have time, do some additional writing. I’ll often have a coffee. That’s, I see my dog. She’s waiting at the bottom of the stairs. So I let her out. feed her. Her favorite time of the day twice is, two favorite times is when she’s fed breakfast and then she’s fed dinner. So she’s just, you know, so happy. And then she lies right at my feet when I meditate every morning, which is the cutest. And just have that moment. So.

Pam (32:24)
You

Sarah (32:34)
And that’s where I set an intention for the day as well. And I find the same thing. It’s a more anxious day if I don’t get to do that. Sometimes I have to wait. If I sleep in a little bit, I have to wait till everyone’s out of the house and then I’ll do it. And that’s fine too. But the main, main, you know, message here for our listeners is to find something simple and grounding for you so you can set the day without, without interference.

from the world, from messages, from other people, messages from the world, from news sources. It’s you, you’re starting fresh. Have some kind of way to like honor that here I am, I’m awake, I got this day ahead of me. This is what I want it to be. So whatever that process is gonna look like for you, I think honoring that is really a game changer.

Pam (33:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it can be 10 minutes. It does not have to be a huge long thing. We don’t want this to feel like, we’re talking about spending all this time every day doing self care. It can really just be like, don’t look at your phone first thing when you get up in the morning.

Sarah (33:29)
For sure.

No.

Yeah.

Some, for sure. And that’s another thing. So, mine are sometimes it’s 10 minutes and that can be that I do a meditation for five minutes and then I write in my journal for five minutes, my five minute journal. If I have longer, I might do a 10 minute or a 15 minute meditation because that’s comfortable for me because I’m so used to it. But if that’s too much for people, you can do three minutes, five minutes. So, I agree with you. It can be really brief.

Pam (34:10)
Okay, and the last thing you have on the list here is walking and movement, which of course, you know that I love seeing that on here. Like I just said, it is so important to me. know, we had, I’ve talked about this on here a couple of times, we had dogs staying with us a couple of weeks ago and they were adorable and sweet, but they interrupted my morning routine. Like I didn’t get to go out for my walks.

Sarah (34:16)
Yes.

important.

Mm.

Pam (34:37)
by myself because if I left the dogs home alone, one of them would cry constantly, which would wake CK up. So I had to try and take that dog with me, but he’s a puppy. So he didn’t want to walk five miles, you know? He was like pokey and smelling everything. And it was like, yeah, going everywhere. so, which is fine. And that’s what they should do. But for me, I was like, you know, my days were like,

Sarah (34:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, they’re going everywhere.

you

Pam (35:06)
more stressed because I didn’t have that movement and the just that that the time outside really is a big thing for me. so so you know whatever your movement practice is I think it is important to have that in your day to day. It could be walking, it could be yoga, it could be five times a day getting up and you know doing push-ups or squats like whatever that is it

Sarah (35:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

whatever it is.

Pam (35:35)
it does release something, it changes how you’re holding stress in your body, it really frees up something, gets your blood flowing and makes a huge difference.

Sarah (35:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I’m with you on the walking. I love a long walk and I love a long walk with a coffee. and and music so I also am taking a break from podcasts. that sounds very dramatic. the last the last few days.

Pam (35:52)
Mm-hmm.

Okay. But I was just going to say, everyone, please take a break from podcasts except for this one.

Sarah (36:12)
except for A Little Bit Easier. No, just on my walks, because I’m like, I love listening to music that feels good because I’m like, I just want to feel pleasure as I’m walking. I don’t want to be learning something, feeling something, getting thoughts about the world. I just want to be in the moment and enjoy it. And for me, that can often be going back to songs that I like. So yeah.

Pam (36:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah (36:38)
I mean, I still love podcasts. The point is for me right now, what feels good is walking with a coffee in my hand, listening to music and walking, walking, walking. And it almost feels like I’m like, I feel myself returning to myself.

Pam (36:52)
Yep. Yeah, I get that. There’s been another benefit for me with exercise, which with weight training, I find that, you know, I go into our gym and I’m lifting something heavier than I think that I can handle and I do it. And that self-confidence that I get out of it and also this feeling of like, okay, that was hard and I did it.

Sarah (37:12)
Mm.

Mm.

Hmm.

Pam (37:20)
I can carry that into the rest of my day and like, can handle other hard things because I built up the confidence and the ability and the knowledge of like, yeah, I can do hard things.

Sarah (37:33)
You can, you can do hard things. yeah, and the exercise, I think the exercise in all of these, these are really commitments to yourself. And it’s just, yeah, they’re commitments to yourself. And when you do that, you’re telling yourself, I care about you and I’m gonna do nice things for you.

Pam (37:41)
Yeah.

Okay, so those are all things to start doing now, even if you’re not stressed, build that baseline, get yourself stable so that when stress hits, you are more able to handle it. So now let’s talk about what you do when you are stressed. What are the coping strategies?

Sarah (38:07)
Mm-hmm.

Well, the first one that I want to start with is the power of recognition. So that’s why we started by sharing about what the window of tolerance is, because I think there’s so much power in being able to say, I’m really stressed right now, or I’m freaking out, or I’m outside my window of tolerance. that’s what’s happening. okay. So for me, that’s, that’s

a huge, huge benefit is just being able to name what’s happening first and almost see it like, okay, this is what I’m experiencing it. And then what I’m experiencing right now. And then that creates almost some space to like then help myself with it.

Pam (38:59)
Yeah, it does. I love that tool for almost anything. Like just naming something when something doesn’t feel right, just naming it, it does create that distance where instead of it being like something that’s wrong with you, it’s like, this is happening. It’s not me. Yeah.

Sarah (39:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is happening. Yeah, yes, this is happening right now.

Pam (39:23)
I’m thinking of a situation we had within the first year after my dad died. Like it was still raw. But I like, I had gotten to the point where like, I’m, you know, I’m okay, I’ve moved past it enough, but I was on a call with someone. And this person was talking about how his dad was in the hospital. And he was talking about his dad in a really like negative way.

Sarah (39:31)
Hmm.

Pam (39:51)
Like that’s just the relationship they have. He’s like, this guy. he’s like saying kind of like rude things about him. And I had to hold it together on this call. And I’m like having an emotional reaction to it. And then I get off the call and CK came in and we had a little like disagreement over something that was nothing. But I was like, I overreacted to it. And then he left and was kind of like, okay. And then I was sitting there and I was like.

Sarah (39:59)
Mm.

Pam (40:17)
it was just so heightened. And then I realized what, like I hadn’t processed yet what had just happened on that call. And then so I went to CK and I was like, hey, this just happened. I’m feeling this way. And he was like, okay, then yeah, that makes sense. You know, and it was like completely diffused the situation and I didn’t have that, that emotion to it anymore. And we didn’t have the conflict anymore. Cause it was like just being able to go, Hey, this is what’s happening. Changes the situation.

Sarah (40:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm such a good example and it actually leads to our next point Very organic, which is communicating And a big part of that is this idea of like not to not suffer alone to not feel like you have to suffer alone

Pam (40:53)
Perfect.

Yeah, and that’s not always easy to, you you would think that like speaking to your partner, the person that’s the closest to you would be a simple thing. But sometimes it’s not. You really do have to build up the, it’s not even confidence, but just build up the skill of saying I’m having a hard time. And here’s how I need help. Or, or not even that I need help. Just, I just need you to know so that when I’m a jerk,

Sarah (41:12)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pam (41:39)
You know why it’s happening. But it feels vulnerable.

Sarah (41:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And so it doesn’t have to, it does feel vulnerable. And sometimes in the past I felt guilty. Like, this maybe my partner is sleeping or maybe, you know, I have to wake them up or they have other things on their mind or I think why haven’t I gotten over this already or why am I so stressed? So we can kind of diminish our own experience.

Pam (42:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (42:08)
Whereas in fact, you know, my opinion, a good relationship is you’re sharing those moments when you’re suffering no matter how long they take.

Pam (42:19)
Yeah, yeah. Your tip on here is to be specific about what you need, whether that is just a vent or if you actually do need help. I love that tip because especially, you know, for women communicating with men frequently, I think men want to fix things. So you go and you say like, you know, you share, you’re having a problem and they’re like, yeah, have you tried?

Sarah (42:25)
Mmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. yeah, big time.

Yeah, have you tried this?

Pam (42:47)
So I will tell CK, I’m not asking for help, I just want to share. And he’ll go, okay. So be clear about what you’re looking for, if you want help or not.

Sarah (42:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah Be really clear be really clear Yeah, and it doesn’t have to be that your partner to whom you’re communicating You can talk to friends you can talk to your parent anyone really but the point is you don’t have to be alone and sometimes if you share it and then other people might identify with it as normalizing your experience they might not be able to solve the issue, but

Sharing helps.

Pam (43:23)
One thing that CK and I do, we take a walk together in the morning and every day we give each other a rating of how we’re feeling. So on a one to five scale, one being, or he likes, he’s changed the scale. He likes negative five to positive five. So zero is like, you know, it’s not great, but I could live like this. And five is like, this is the best day of my life. And negative five is like, I’m gonna die. So.

Sarah (43:31)
Mm.

my.

Pam (43:51)
we give each other a rating and then some context. it’ll be, yeah. So I tell him like, I’m a two today and here’s why. Sometimes I say, well, with him, he’ll give me a rating. He’ll be like, I’m a two. And I’m like, really? Cause you feel like a zero.

Sarah (43:53)
You mean you give yourselves a rating. Okay. You’re not like you’re a negative three today.

you

Pam (44:09)
But I’m really sensitive to like people’s energy. Like I can pick it up. And so sometimes like I’ll be like, well, and he’ll be like, yeah, actually this and this and this is bothering me. okay, I knew it. But yeah, it’s just an easy way to check in first thing in the morning because, you know, if you’ve got a lot going on, like it takes away that vulnerability of having to approach the other person and be like, hey, I want to talk to you about this if it’s just part of your schedule. So like every day we do it.

Sarah (44:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Pam (44:38)
and it’s like, you know, I’m stressed out because I’ve got this meeting today that I don’t feel like I’m prepared for and, you know, this is going on with my mom or like whatever it is, like we can just kind of like quickly offload all of it and give the other person a heads up about how we’re feeling that day. And it also like lets us kind of like track trends almost like if, if it’s like, okay, well you’ve been like a negative one for a week, maybe there’s something going on. we do we need to…

Sarah (45:01)
Mm.

Pam (45:08)
know, get some some help here or something like that. Yes, exactly. So just, you know, you’re welcome to steal it, everybody, if you want to give that a shot. It’s handy for us.

Sarah (45:11)
Yeah, call in the supports. Well, I like it.

I love it. What a great example of how to be specific with your communication and how you’re doing.

Pam (45:29)
how to process your emotional state.

Sarah (45:31)
On a scale of minus five, two plus five.

Pam (45:36)
We’re dorks. Okay, so next thing is to take a mental escape.

Sarah (45:47)
Yeah, and for me the key way is reading, reading my novels. I don’t watch a ton of TV, but I do love when I get into a program, I do love to lose myself in a TV program as well. But I love my novels and I’ve shared before that I love learning from nonfiction.

And at the same time, I’m more partial to fiction because for me that feels more like an act of self care and more interesting to read about somebody else’s life because when I read personal development or business development, I began to identify with it. And so the whole experience, the essence of the experience has changed and it becomes like I’m like self-centered about it. I’m like, how does this apply to me? And what am I doing well and not well? You know, so it’s completely different experience too.

getting lost in a novel, which is completely not about me. So for me, that’s like one of the best medicines is a good book.

Pam (46:52)
Yep, love that. Good book, definitely for me as well. I love cleaning. Like if I just need a break, like put on an audio book or a good podcast or something like that and clean the bathroom or clean the kitchen, something like that, that like at the end, I have accomplished something that feels good. Like looking around at a clean room, it’s just calming to me. And so it like, it…

Sarah (47:11)
Yeah.

yeah.

Pam (47:20)
scratches those two itches of like needing something calming and also like taking me out of whatever is stressing me out like I’m focusing on something else and putting energy into an active task that always makes me feel better.

Sarah (47:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I feel like there’s certain people in my life who are like that and then other people who aren’t like thinking of specific people that I know who are like, I love cleaning and I feel so much better about the world after I’ve just organized my t-shirt drawer than other friends who were like, what?

Pam (47:40)
yeah.

You

Yes.

Yes, takes all kinds. Yeah.

Sarah (47:55)
Yeah, it’s amazing. Yeah, but that’s a great it’s true because you’re satisfied at the end.

Pam (48:02)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Another one that you have on the list here is walking. Going back to that physical movement. That is a great one. So whatever you can do that just gives you some space from the stress. you know, if you are in a place where you’re like ruminating on the stress, then maybe do something that takes you out of that. Like you just said, reading fiction, putting you in a different world. If you are

Sarah (48:18)
Yeah.

Pam (48:29)
in a place where you actually do need to think about it and you want to put some thought into it, then you can go for a walk without music or without a podcast or something and let your mind kind of work on the problem and be free. So there’s no like prescription here. It’s just whatever works for you to take the type of break that you need.

Sarah (48:34)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

speaking of prescription, I think we’d also be remiss to not mention the fact that if the stress is overwhelming you, please seek professional help.

And that help might be exactly what you need, whether that’s a therapist, medication, a coach, whatever kind of mental health support you need if the stress feels overwhelming.

Pam (49:24)
Yeah, the benefit of a third party can’t be overstated. Like having someone outside of the situation to talk to and to help you reflect and to just hear you and see you and give you an outside perspective is invaluable.

Sarah (49:29)
Mm-hmm.

Great. Well, I wanted to also, before we round things out, I wanted to talk about the role of boundaries. Because I think that boundaries play into everything that we’ve been discussing when it comes to protecting our energy and putting ourselves on our own agenda in service of stress management.

Pam (50:11)
They definitely do, yes. We’ve done at least one episode on boundaries. So if you want to deep dive into that, you can go back, but let’s talk about like a couple of the key types of boundaries that we’re talking about here that do have a huge impact on your stress level.

Sarah (50:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and the reason why I wanted to talk about this is a reminder that taking these actions to care for our stress levels is something, it might be something new. It’s putting something new in your calendar or removing it, and that’s going outside of the status quo. And so it’s not gonna necessarily come naturally or easily, right? So to do that, you have to be like saying to yourself,

okay, I’m putting in these boundaries. This is a boundary I’m drawing for myself. So there’s some intentionality around.

Pam (51:00)
Right, like if you are going to change your morning so that you have an hour to go walk by yourself, that might require a conversation with your partner about how you need them to take care of the kids or whatever during this time. And this is a boundary that I’m setting that I need this time for myself or with your boss. know, I’m…

going to start taking lunch at a certain time or whatever that is, or I’m going to leave work on time because I need to for my mental health. These are all time boundaries that you may have to set with people.

Sarah (51:36)
Great, yes, so that’s one type of boundary that you were just explaining. There’s time boundaries where you’re saying no to extra tasks or commitments or yes to certain tasks or commitments. There’s another one which is emotional boundaries, which is noticing the impact that other people’s energy and stress is having on you. And I think it’s like, you know, ideally not absorbing it, but that can be hard.

So setting an intention to have that boundary. And I’ve become a lot better at that because I’m so, I used to just like take it on other people’s emotions. Cause like you, I will feel that so acutely and I’m very empathetic. So now I’m cognizant of other people’s stress and emotions. And I try to be there and be supportive without allowing it to overtake me as much as I can.

Pam (52:33)
Yeah, that’s a tough one. It’s hard to find that line where it’s like, I’m caring for you and I care about the problem that you’re having, but I’m not making it my problem. Yeah.

Sarah (52:43)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The other thing that I’m thinking about this is this is also around media consumption. Because if you’re just free rein watching your social media feeds, your social media feed is designed to hijack your emotions and all even LinkedIn does that with posts. And so

Pam (52:52)
Hmm.

Sarah (53:10)
you’re gonna be just seeing over and over people talking about things and expressing things that are going to affect your emotion and your stress level. And so a boundary, an emotional boundary can be around limiting your access to certain apps, especially if you’re feeling sensitive in a certain moment or on certain topics, but limiting your exposure to media sources.

Pam (53:39)
would add on to that to be aware of the negative energy that you’re putting on other people as well. This is different than like sharing that you’re stressed out and that you need help. That is healthy to do, but you know, like if you’re having a bad day, you don’t have to…

Sarah (53:50)
Hmm

Pam (54:05)
take that out on someone else and spread that around.

Sarah (54:08)
Yeah, absolutely. It goes both ways.

Pam (54:11)
So another boundary that I was thinking of is actually like boundaries with yourself. So like understanding that you have to take responsibility for your emotions and your reactions. And like

Sarah (54:12)
Yeah.

Pam (54:30)
consciously decide how you want to engage with the world. I was thinking of this because I was listening to a podcast today called Search Engine, where they were interviewing a Zen priest named rev angel Kyoto williams. And it was about meditation, but they were really talking about like, this situation that we’re in right now, with the, you know, political landscape and everything. And how to how to not

Sarah (54:58)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (55:00)
be so impacted by life events or negative news or any of that. And they were talking about how outside circumstances will always impact you. You can’t control the outside. You can only improve how you respond and how you move forward. And I think that that is a personal boundary with yourself to be like, I’m gonna set

this intention and this, like make this choice to do all of the self care that we’ve been talking about and to make my mental health a priority and to not just do the easy thing because the easy thing is to doom scroll and feel overwhelmed and to just like let it happen to you. It’s harder to do the work and to set

Sarah (55:52)
Yeah.

Mm.

Pam (55:58)
aside time to focus on yourself and to set boundaries with other people. This is all hard stuff that we’re talking about. So you have to make that decision and that commitment to yourself.

Sarah (56:06)
Mm-hmm.

I really love how you phrased it that because I had never thought of it exactly in that way that it can be like a commitment to setting a boundary for yourself. This is really setting a boundary around your own self care and specifically your own relationship with prioritizing mental your own mental wellness. Right. That’s that’s the bottom line of the.

Pam (56:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (56:38)
of the stress management and it’s really going to look different for all of us. So we talked about, you know, foundational tools that will make you feel good or have like a healthier baseline. We talked about specific things that you might want to do in the moment if you’re feeling hijacked. And at the end of the day, we’re all different and our lives are different and our time is different and our resources are different and our interests are different. And so we get to be our own researchers about what works and what doesn’t.

But I love that that sort of wisdom from was it a monk? priest? A Zen priest around going back to this basic concept that yeah, we can’t control everything that’s going on around us. We can influence in our own way, but we can’t control all outcomes. And what do we have control over? It’s how we respond.

Pam (57:15)
Zen priest.

So this is an ongoing process for people to go through. It’s not like you’re going to wake up tomorrow and have a morning routine and a fitness routine and mental health and feel stable and have this window of tolerance for all of the stress in the world. But you build your baseline. And as you build the baseline, it

Sarah (57:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Pam (58:09)
makes you stronger. And as you build these tools, it makes you stronger and that window of tolerance can become wider so that you can handle more because you have done all of the work to to make yourself more resilient and to be able to recover faster and to be able to handle what you have control of. So like you just said, it’s not it’s not going to look the same for everyone. But

Sarah (58:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (58:40)
The key here is to be self-aware and be able to look at yourself and say, this is what I need and this is what works for me. This is what I’m gonna try and keep experimenting. Keep seeing what works for you.

Sarah (58:55)
Yes, keep experimenting. And so I’d love to end with one invitation for our listeners, which is to think about what your relationship with stress management looks like right now. What does your boundary look like? Is it really healthy and solid and is it working for you or is the boundary porous or is it non-existent? What’s going on and what is one

boundary that you would love to set for yourself, one small change that will be an act of self-care that will help you manage stress just a little bit better in this season and to take action on that consistently and see what happens.