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May 29, 2024

Episode 28: How to Navigate a Layoff

This conversation revolves around personal experiences of job loss and layoffs, and provides tips for dealing with the emotional and practical aspects of a layoff. Sarah and Pam discuss the emotional impact of a layoff, the importance of self-care and self-reflection, and the need to build a strong support network. They also emphasize the significance of financial preparedness and continuous skill development. The conversation concludes with advice on how friends can support someone who has been laid off.


  • Experiencing a layoff can have a significant emotional impact, including feelings of shock, shame, sadness, and self-doubt. It is important to acknowledge and process these emotions.
  • Take time to remember and nurture your identity outside of work. Engage in activities and relationships that bring you joy and fulfillment.
  • Financial preparedness is crucial. Aim to have at least three months of expenses saved in an emergency fund to provide a cushion in case of job loss.
  • Continuously develop your skills and stay connected in your industry. Networking and building your personal brand can open up opportunities and make you stand out to potential employers.
  • If you have a friend who has been laid off, be there for them, offer support, and include them in social activities. Avoid excluding them due to financial concerns.

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This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

Pam (00:00)
So do you have a layoff story that you’re willing to share?

sarah (00:05)
I have a story of losing a job that I equate to a layoff story because I think the emotional impact was significant for me and relates to what I heard from so many of my clients and friends and people in my orbit around what being laid off feels like. This was before I started my coaching full-time and I was working at an organization and I was on a contract,

which I loved, I loved my contract role. And I had a verbal agreement that once that contract completed, I would be offered a full-time job in an area that was really interesting for me, and it was a promotion as well. So it was added responsibility and a national scope. And my project ended and it was super successful, and then the funding for the program was cut.

So I went out for lunch thinking, oh, I was going to be told about my new responsibilities in my future with the organization. And instead I heard, you know, no that the funding has been cut for this. We no longer have something for you. And I was, had it had a big emotional impact for me. I felt blindsided. I felt like at that point in my life, I hadn’t seen myself as an entrepreneur or that I would really be building out my coaching business.

I saw myself very much as part of a team and a team player and part of an organization. And so yeah, it was a huge shock. I was super, super upset about it. And there was like a significant recovery process for me. And then there was also a happy ending, which is

it ended up being a positive detour for me once I licked my wounds and sort of assessed what I wanted to do next and then slowly built out my business and here I am. So it did turn out to be a happy mistake or whatever. I had a happy ending. So that’s my example of a recent layoff story.

Pam (02:15)
I have sort of a similar event, which means it turned out well in the end, but I’ve been working for myself for 15 years, so this is a pretty old story. But when I was in my early 20s, it was the first dot-com boom out here in California, so they were kinda handing out jobs to everyone. And my first job was at a…

sarah (02:23)


Pam (02:44)
a company that made no money. Like they literally didn’t charge anything for the products that they were creating. So they just like blew through all of their investment money and went under. And so I very quickly got another job and I hated that job so much. I was miserable there. And so I quit and then got another job a couple of weeks later.

and then got laid off from that job after two weeks. So it wasn’t a job that I cared about, it was just like paying the bills. But I got laid off and then because I had been laid off from that job, I was able to collect unemployment, which turned out to be a great thing because we had gone into the dot com crash. So I went from a period of like, you could get a job in two weeks and make more money than you should be making for your level of experience to…

sarah (03:11)
Mm-hmm. Ha.


Pam (03:37)
Like I couldn’t get a job at Target. Like I couldn’t get a retail job. I couldn’t get anything. So because I had been laid off, like I went through eight months of not being able to work. And that takes a huge toll on how you feel about yourself and your like just self-esteem and…

sarah (03:41)



for sure.

Pam (04:06)
just everything really. But had I not had that job for two weeks that I got laid off from, I wouldn’t have been able to get unemployment because I had quit the previous job. So if you quit a job, you can’t get unemployment. If you get laid off, you can. So it was actually, okay. So it was actually like a blessing that I got that job for two weeks and then got laid off so I could get the unemployment that carried me through eight months of not being able to find work.

sarah (04:20)
Yeah. It’s the same here in Canada, yeah.

I love what you shared because I think it relates the obvious fact that our market really does have a lot of ebbs and flows to it. And there’s moments where there’s a plethora of jobs out there and the market’s really working in our favor. And then there’s moments where the market is a lot more challenging and it’s a lot more difficult. And also you’re pointing out, sometimes we’re resourced outside, whether that’s.

Pam (04:48)

sarah (05:06)
We’re getting some money from employment insurance. Sometimes we get a package from our company. Sometimes we have a partner or some other types of systems to support us. And then other times we don’t, we have different expenses, et cetera. So there’s so many factors at play that color the conversation.

Pam (05:23)
And we’re talking about this right now because we are in one of these situations where it seems like a lot of people are either going through layoffs or have left a job for one reason or another and are having a lot of trouble finding a new position. And a lot of this came out of the pandemic. I think that there was a lot of change in our economy, a lot of businesses either hired or let go of a lot of people.

sarah (05:26)



Pam (05:51)
on both sides that happened over the last couple of years. And now we’re kind of in this correction where a lot of people are being laid off and a lot of other people, because so many jobs went remote, the pool for hiring is so much larger now that it can be even more difficult to get hired for a position. So dealing with a layoff is something that I feel a lot of people are going through right now. So that’s why we’re talking about it.

sarah (05:55)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that’s why we’re talking about it. And I like what you said about just the pool being more competitive. And the fact is, when there’s mass layoff, mass layoffs like this, we can find many individuals who have a similar background or profile to ours, which means it can become more challenging. And I heard some anecdotal crazy stats right now.

If you’re applying for a tech job, apparently out of 100 jobs, so this is just cold applications, but ones for which you’re qualified. If you’re applying for jobs out of a hundred, you’ll get about a 1 to 3% response rate,

which is low. I mean, putting together a hundred applications is a lot to get one to three responses. And then once you get those responses, the interview process is now, I’m told, quite arduous. There’s like a lot of rounds of interviews. Sometimes people are being asked to put together presentations of strategies, and this is time consuming and can be anxiety inducing and bring up a lot of stuff for folks.

Pam (07:06)

sarah (07:32)
And finally, I’m hearing that the market is, it’s really favoring the employers now. So some of the stuff that I’m hearing from my clients is that there’s a return to office mandates. Right when we got used to working from home and we thought that was a no brainer, now some employers are saying, well, now you’ve got to come back to the office and some of the perks and benefits that used to be afforded to employees are no longer being offered.

Pam (07:40)


sarah (08:02)
That’s, it’s a moment. It’s a moment that a lot of people are working through.

Pam (08:05)

Yeah. Okay, so let’s offer some tips on how to process a layoff emotionally, things that you can do to deal with it.

sarah (08:15)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we wanted to start here because I think emotion, I mean, there’s the practical piece and then the emotional piece can be so profound. One reason is because for many of us, we associate a lot of our identity with our professional role.

So that can be if we love our job, if we feel really proud about our job, if we feel really proud for working for a certain kind of company and employers help feed this. So, you know, they’re getting, they are often getting their employees to really get excited about the company, drink the gulade and really feel like they’re part of this quote unquote family. And so it’s easy. Yeah.

Pam (09:03)
Well, it’s the first thing that you ask someone when you meet them? What do you do?

sarah (09:09)
Yeah, I mean, it’s cultural, right? It’s a huge part of our identity. And so then when that’s taken away, we can feel shock, shame, sadness, grief, self-doubt, panic, all of these kinds of things. So it’s a lot to process. And all of that is legitimate. After all, you’re spending how many hours a week at work? Like, lots.

Pam (09:12)
Yeah, it’s a huge part of our identity.


Yeah, that’s interesting that you said shame. I hadn’t really thought about that, but there definitely is, like, even if you are, you know, you lose your job through no fault of your own, you are a great employee who’s doing great, and it’s a company decision, there is this shame of I’m unemployed. And that can have so many like snowball effects of.

sarah (09:41)



Pam (10:05)
you know, making you not want to tell people that you’ve been laid off, which then if you don’t tell people, then how do they know to help you find a new job?

sarah (10:09)

Yeah. So I think, um, acknowledging all of those feelings, naming the feelings and working on processing them. And so many of our episodes are about this type of topic. Like how do we become mindful of what we’re experiencing and how do we process that in a healthy way? So I don’t think it’s a one and done thing. I think what I wanted to bring to light is just, it’s normal, whatever you’re feeling is normal. And

Figure out what’s going to help you move through it so that you can accept where you’re at and start caring for yourself in a way that’s going to make you feel better.

Pam (10:56)
Yeah, you have to be like, this sucks and, obviously you can take a few days to feel like crap and do whatever you need to do to feel all the feels, but then you do have to take some steps towards, like you said, self-care, whatever you need to do to start moving on and like, yeah, I’m still upset about this, it still doesn’t feel great.

sarah (11:00)

Pam (11:25)
but I have to now take some steps forward.

sarah (11:28)
Yes, and I really believe that a great way to do that is to do things outside of your sphere of work. So to remember what are the activities that you enjoy doing, what are your hobbies, what are your relationships that feed you, what are your friendships that feel really good where you can talk about stuff outside of work and to invest time in that again and to remember who you are as a whole person outside of work.

because there’s nothing like losing your job to kind of make you face the fact that like you are a whole person outside of your workplace.

Pam (12:09)
And this is a great opportunity if you happen to have a lot of time on your hands because you’re not working to volunteer somewhere. Because there’s a ton of networking that comes along with volunteering and a lot of people that volunteer are employed and are, you know, people that you can connect to and build relationships with. And they could maybe bring you in to their position or refer you to another position.

sarah (12:13)


Pam (12:36)
So that’s like kind of taking the time that you have available now to, you know, give… give to something else, which will make you feel better about yourself, will rebuild some of that self-esteem, but is also networking and giving you new opportunities.

sarah (12:40)


Yes. So I love the volunteering idea. And, and yeah, just a reminder to take the moment if you’re able to do so to really take the moment to check in with yourself and think about, well, now at this age and stage of my life, what is important to me? What do I want to spend my time doing and to actually use your time to do that?

Pam (13:15)
Right, because you can only spend so much time applying for jobs. Like, that’s not an eight hour job on its own. Like, looking for jobs, applying for jobs, obviously spend time doing that. But you have to do something else. You can’t just get into this, like, dread cycle of, you know, refreshing LinkedIn all day.

sarah (13:23)


Yeah, and that reminds me of an article that I read, which I mentioned to you. It’s a Harvard Business Review guide to getting a job. And in that article, they recommend spending one to two hours actively applying for jobs online. That’s one to two hours. And the rationale for that is you’re to spend the rest of your time doing things with people that bring you joy.

And there’s a reason for that. Well, there’s a couple reasons for that. Number one, it’s building on what you said before. It’s how you can meet people. It’s how you get close to people is actually doing activities with them. And so many of jobs, so many of jobs, so many jobs come from our relationships. They don’t come from a cold, cold resume application. So this is a way to actually build…

strengthen relationships and build new relationships, which is gonna help you find a new job. Even if I think about you and me, now we’ve been doing this podcast together, it’s something we both like doing, we both enjoy doing. Well, how much easier would it be for the two of us to refer each other for jobs now, should that come up, right? Because we’ve built this relationship separate of, separate from networking for a job sake.

Pam (14:53)


sarah (15:03)
So start a podcast with someone as an example.

Pam (15:09)
Yep. Going back to our stories and the mindset piece, you can also decide if this change is something that you can use to make a career shift, if that is something that is open to you or something that you want to do. I know a lot of people who have gone through a layoff and then gone back to school.

sarah (15:13)


Pam (15:37)
or completely changed their careers, and it ended up being the best thing that has ever happened to them. So you can think of it as a positive. You may not feel that it’s a positive yet because you’re still in the negative, but if you can see it as an opportunity and take that kind of forced chance to make a change, that could be a great, great shift.

sarah (15:47)


Yeah, 100% because it can be very hard.

to leave a full-time job, even if in our hearts we know that we’re going to flourish somewhere else, or we have this calling to do something else, there’s plenty of reasons to stay in a full-time job, right? There’s the relationships you have there, there’s the salary that you have there, the accolades or sort of the projects that you’ve already run, the social capital that you have, so it can really kind of keep you stuck. And then if you’re pushed out of the nest because of a…

a layoff, there can definitely not to minimize the pain, but for a lot of people, there’s a hidden blessing there.

Pam (16:38)
Mm-hmm. I’m thinking about Friends when Rachel was working at the coffee shop, but she wanted to go into fashion. And I don’t remember which one of the friends told her this, but someone said, you need the fear. They’re like, you have to quit the coffee shop job so that you will go and get the fashion job because you feel too safe and secure when you have your job. So this is forced fear. Yeah.

sarah (16:41)

Oh my gosh. forced fear, you can be just like Rachel and Friends. Then move on to a flourishing fashion career.

Pam (17:08)
Yep. So back to kind of the like emotional impacts and also the like connections. I mentioned that like one of the things that happens is when people feel shame, they like don’t want to talk about it. They don’t wanna tell anyone. And I think the biggest, like most important thing that you can do is tell people.

sarah (17:35)

Pam (17:35)
reach out to your network, reach out to your friends, whether that’s just having a support system of people that you’re close to and that you talk to and you stay connected with, or whether that is actually asking people, can you help me get this job? I was talking to someone the other day who is in this position of being laid off, and there’s a job that he wants and he knows someone at the company, and he doesn’t want to bother the person and reach out to them and ask,

sarah (17:44)



Pam (18:05)
for help getting the job. And I’m like, what? That is how you get jobs. So, you know, it can be hard, but you got to do it. If that’s the job that you want, ask for help.

sarah (18:06)

Mm-hmm. It’s, yeah. Well, that’s such a great example of how vulnerable it can feel and how people can internalize this situation to think it means something bad about them. Yeah. So did you give them a pep talk and tell them to go, okay, good. Yeah, I’m not surprised that you did, yeah.

Pam (18:30)

Yeah, I did. I did. Yes. Yeah.

Well, he was worried about not so much about asking, but he was like worried that he would get the job and then not do well and that would look poorly on the person who referred him. And so I said, the answer here is not to not ask for the connection. The answer is to not do poorly at the job. Get the job and do well. You’ll be fine. Yeah, yeah.

sarah (18:48)
So, okay.

Mm-hmm. Get the job and kill it, yeah. Huh. Interesting. Okay, so you were chatting about not self-isolating, right? So really putting yourself out there and talking to people about your situation and about what you’re looking for.

Pam (19:13)

Yes, oh, that’s a great point. So be specific. So I talk about this all the time with people who are consultants or who have clients. And especially in the marketing world, there’s thousands of us and there’s also a lot of specialties. And I know a hundred people that do something similar to what I do, but I don’t know what they specialize in. So if a lead comes across my desk and I don’t want it, I don’t know who to refer it to because they want something specific.

sarah (19:25)


Pam (19:51)
because all these people just say they’re in marketing. And it’s like, well, what marketing? So when you are talking about what you’re looking for, be specific, here are my skills, here’s what I’m great at, here’s the type of company that I will fit in at, here’s the titles of the jobs that I’m looking for. Like the more information that you can give people so they can help you easily, like make it as easy as possible for them to just see that and go, oh my God, I know the job just for you. Like don’t make them work to help you.

sarah (19:57)



And I think everything you’re saying makes so much sense and I think for a lot of people they don’t know They don’t have that clarity So I mean that’s often what I’m helping people with is just find the finding the words for what it is that they want next so I think you know take the time to figure that out To figure out who you are

Pam (20:29)
Yeah, sure.

sarah (20:49)
as a professional in this moment, you’re different than you were. Unless you were like Pam and you got laid off after two weeks. Most likely you’ve been in your role for a significant amount of time. So that who you were before is and what you were looking for then is different than now. You have more skills, more wisdom, more experience, more age than when you were in this previous job. So who are you now? What skills do you have now that you want to bring forward? What’s your ideal? If you want to go into consulting or some kind of fractional,

Pam (20:56)

sarah (21:19)
role. Define what that is. Get crystal clear. Spend time researching. Find someone to help guide you through that process so that you can be A, confident in yourself, knowing what you want, and then B, as you said, be really clear with your friends and your network about what it is that you’re seeking.

Pam (21:39)
Mm-hmm. And it can be an exercise that, like you said, really does build you up. And you can kind of list out your accomplishments and things that you enjoyed working on, things that you were really good at, and then be like, I’m great. Right? Like, I have so much to offer. And that can kind of be an antidote to that shame and feeling terrible about being laid off.

sarah (21:45)


Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. And actually a friend of mine who I was recently speaking with, who also went through a layoff process was talking about, ah, was talking to me about recruiters and now they’re really, maybe recruiters have always been like this, but it’s very much checking boxes. So if they’re filling a role, it’s like, do you have this? Well, do you have this particular skill?

tell me clearly and tell me an example of when you did it in a way that matches clearly with this particular role that we’re looking for. So I think this exercise of getting your profile done, like owning your profile, owning your story, like taking authorship over that, and then coming up with your examples, your success stories that light you up when you tell, that are authentic and true, and that also light you up when you can.

tell them and they paint a clear picture of what you bring to the table. As you said, that can be a really affirming activity as well for yourself. And we’ll help you when you’re chatting with the recruiters.

Pam (23:02)


For sure. And interviews too, that’s another thing. If you haven’t interviewed in five or 10 years, you might need a little practice. So find someone that you can practice with, know that you’re gonna be asked things like, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? Those kind of things and be ready to answer those. Have answers prepared.

sarah (23:16)
Yes. Yes, true.


Always have your answers prepared. Yeah.

Pam (23:35)
So not everyone that’s listening has been laid off. A lot of you have stable jobs and are not in the position of having to do a job search. So we want to talk about some things that you can do to plan ahead because even though your job may feel very stable, like we talked about earlier, there’s a lot of market forces that are at play, things that have nothing to do with you, a lot of economic upheaval going on. So it’s just a good idea to always

take care of yourself and plan ahead and make sure that if you are in a layoff situation, that you’re as prepared as possible.

sarah (24:10)
Mm-hmm. I love it.

Pam (24:14)
So mine, which people will not be surprised to hear, involves money. So my biggest tip is to take care of yourself first, pay yourself first, by working towards having three months of expenses saved in an emergency account. I think job searches at this point may even be taking like six months and more. So three months is a bare minimum.

sarah (24:34)

Pam (24:39)
You don’t have to obviously get that overnight, but make that a goal that you get to the point where you do have that emergency savings set aside so that if you do lose your job, it’s not a situation where next month you can’t pay your rent. You could take off some of that stress and know that you have a little bit of a runway before it becomes an emergency situation because you’re going to be a lot more… Your energy is going to be a lot better when you’re interviewing and when you’re…

sarah (25:05)

Pam (25:08)
applying when you’re not like, oh my God, I need this job because I can’t pay my bills. Like that energy is not great when you’re trying to find a job.

sarah (25:12)

It’s so true and so much of our impact on other people comes from our nonverbal cues. And part of that is our energy. And so if we have an energy of franticness, fear, desperation, panic, it’s very hard to mask that and it will, the people around us will notice. And so anything we can do to kind of

mitigate that and we’re talking about, oh, take care of yourself and nurture your hobbies and take care of your body and all this stuff in the whilst looking for a job. But if you are, you know, feeling very stressed financially, then it’s hard to do those things. So what you’re saying makes so much sense.

you know, working towards having that solid emergency fund for potential job loss is really important because a job loss can really happen very easily. I think people can get into like a false feeling of security, like, Oh, my company values me. They value their talent. But at the end of the day, within the corporate structure, we’re all replaceable. Sorry to say that, but it’s true. We’re all replaceable. We’re all just cogs in like a corporate wheel. So.

realizing that I think it’s scary, but it’s also liberating. None of us are that special in the corporate space.

Pam (26:41)
Well, and if you take that control of, you know, making sure that you have a financial cushion, then you can, that control feels good, right? And you are taking the control of the direction of your life, and also it puts you in a situation where even if you’re not laid off, if you want to change jobs, you have that freedom.

sarah (26:49)



Listen, you got more power for you.

Pam (27:08)

sarah (27:10)
Okay. All right. My next point, no one’s gonna be surprised by this point of mine, is that to remember, so before you get laid off, if you ever do get laid off, is to spend time remembering who you are as a whole person outside of work. And this is the same thing that I would tell people who are approaching, even within 10 years retirement, so that it’s not a huge shock when that.

Pam (27:15)

sarah (27:36)
when that structure isn’t there anymore, what do you love doing? What do you love about yourself? What’s gonna make your life fulfilling? And how can you integrate those relationships and those activities into your life right now so that work is a great thing that you do. It’s a part of your life, but it’s not all of your life. Start kind of knowing yourself and loving your whole person now outside of the workplace.

Pam (28:02)
I hadn’t even thought about this in the context of retirement. That makes a lot of sense. Like, get some hobbies.

sarah (28:04)

Get some hobbies. So true. Get some hobbies, read some books.

Pam (28:12)
Yeah. Read some books. And kind of similar, but another thing is to not get complacent about your skills. So right now in the position that you’re in, continue learning, continue leveling up your skills, continue being interested in things outside of the scope of just your role. So that if you do want to change jobs or end up in a layoff situation,

sarah (28:19)


Pam (28:39)
you have a robust skill set that can help you move into other positions if your exact same position is not available somewhere else.

sarah (28:42)

Great, I love that. And building on that, networking now. So developing relationships, building real relationships with people in your field, in adjacent fields, staying on top of what’s happening in the field that you’re in or fields that you’re interested in now so that you have some seeds planted.

Pam (29:14)
Yeah, go to conferences. If your industry is something that, you know, there’s newsletters or Substacks or something like that where people are talking about it, comment, you know, engage with people, post on LinkedIn, whatever that is that you can do that keeps you connected in your industry and starts to build your brand. Like that, you really are, when you’re looking for a job, you are selling yourself.

sarah (29:15)



Pam (29:40)
So if you have this brand and people like recruiters or employers can go and look at your LinkedIn profile and see that you share really interesting viewpoints and intelligent comments and all of that, then that can just only help to build your profile and make you more likely to be one of those 1% to 3% that gets contacted.

sarah (29:53)

Yeah, and I want to talk a little bit more about the idea of branding and let’s say for example LinkedIn and how somebody presents themselves on LinkedIn. Because what I see with some of the clients that I work with is there’s a tendency to really profile their workplace when they’re on LinkedIn. So the brand will… their brand on LinkedIn will…

a lot of it will be about like what their employer is doing. Right. And so I’m going to suggest to people to have a take up more balanced approach where by all means you can talk about your work projects, talk about all the great things your employer is doing. And at the same time, own who you are as an individual, like a contributor to that organization. Well, what else do you what other

Pam (30:32)
Oh, I see.

sarah (30:53)
thoughts do you have outside of that your employer is great? What other contributions do you want to make about this? As you said, Pam, like what are some other articles you can post about your field or like slightly adjacent to your field so that you’re developing your own voice? You’re not just parroting your organization’s voice because that’s developed.

Pam (31:07)

Yeah, be a whole person on there.

sarah (31:19)
be a whole person because and your work can be part of that. But that’s yeah, that’s to me that that’s it. That’s a more empowering way of looking at branding.

Pam (31:31)
Yeah, make sure, I think this was about what you were gonna say when I interrupted you, but like make sure that you’re building your brand, not building your company’s

sarah (31:34)

Pam (31:39)
You can even talk about what you do, where you volunteer or other interests you have, as long as it’s not like, don’t turn LinkedIn into your Instagram, but do bring some personality there and show how you stand out and how you can contribute to an organization positively.

sarah (31:44)

100%. And I think that’s an ex… a strategic exercise for the future as we’re talking about because stuff takes time. When I think about some of the business that’s come to me, some of the partnerships or clients, those seeds were planted years ago. An introduction was made or an impression was made a conversation was had, and then it took several years for something to blossom. So don’t wait until

Pam (32:08)

sarah (32:26)
the layoff, a potential layoff happens to start branding on LinkedIn or whatever your platform is. If possible, start before, start before. And again, then you can start with an energy of confidence, with an energy of feeling more relaxed because you already have a job. So there’s not sort of that other energy. So I think that, yeah, my point was, I think it’s a strategic thing to do. And then as well, I think it’s a self,

empowering thing to do because you’re remembering, oh yeah, what do I stand for outside of like, in addition to my job, you can still be proud about your job, you can still talk about all the stuff they’re doing. But what else does do I want to say in my voice here, which I think is a very valuable exercise from the perspective of your own personal leadership.

Pam (33:21)
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so if people have friends that have been laid off, how can they support them?

sarah (33:30)
Mm-hmm. The number one thing is to be there for your friend. Sounds sort of obvious, but I think sometimes we can feel awkward if we think somebody is feeling sad. We don’t know what to do with those feelings. We can feel worried we’re gonna say the wrong thing. So I think just continuing to say, I’m here, I think you’re awesome.

everything you’re feeling is normal, and I’m rooting for you, and what can we do that’s fun? What can we do? What can I do to cheer you up? Can I do A, B, or C? Can I come over with food? Can we go for a walk? Can I take you for lunch? Just to make it really easy for them, and just to keep showing up and checking in on them.

Pam (34:20)
Yeah. And I’m thinking about how, you know, if you have a friend in your friend group who has been laid off and you’re making plans with the friend group, you know, maybe you guys are going to all go to brunch or go on a vacation or something like that, the instinct is going to be to like to not invite that person because you don’t want them to feel bad about not being able to afford to go. And I think that’s the worst thing that you can do because then you’re like cutting them off from their friend group. So

Hopefully you can have a great communication with your friend and be like, hey, we’re all going to brunch. We know that you’re in a spot right now. So we want to cover you or like, you know, like support them. And obviously if you’re not in a position to pick up the tap, don’t do that to yourself, but like make sure to include them and, you know, schedule activities that don’t have any cost involved, you know, go over to their house, go for a walk. Like your social interactions might have to change a little bit, but that’s.

sarah (35:11)

Pam (35:19)
that’s better than cutting them off because they can’t afford to go.

sarah (35:21)
Yes, yes, 100%. And I think a lot of social interactions are changing and a lot for a lot of people the way we spend money is changing. I think post pandemic, there’s been I’ve noticed there’s been more consciousness around spending and like conscious spending. And so for example,

Decisions to have okay a no-cost spa day where a bunch of friends will get together at somebody’s home And you can how can you have a great day? You don’t need to go spend you know hundreds of or thousands of dollars whatever at a spa. You can do a bunch of stuff at home, so I’m seeing a lot more a lot more Conversations and articles about this so I think our kind of Conversation is changing around spending

Because a lot of people are dealing with inflation and rising cost of living and job insecurity or loss of a job or whatnot. So great, get on that bandwagon with your friend and find some interesting ways to have fun that don’t cost money.

Pam (36:36)
All right, anything else?

sarah (36:42)
My last words would be if you’ve lost a job or been laid off. I think the great opportunity there is to practice not taking it personally.

because on the other side of that is freedom.

and good luck and may you find something bigger and better that makes you way happier.


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