In this episode Pam & Sarah discuss:

Using technology (or not) to make processes easier
The benefits of processing mundane things
Freeing up time for more meaningful activities
How processes and habits anchor your day in healthy choices
Pam’s weird breakfast and Sarah’s totally normal breakfast
Meal planning recommendations
Deciding what’s realistic for you
Reframing the thought that processes are boring
How having kids affected Sarah’s cooking routine
Pam’s journey from being a very messy person to being clean and organized
The importance of decluttering as an ongoing effort
Being intentional about what material things you bring into your house
The difference between Pam’s organizational strategies and Sarah’s given their very different lives
The freedom that comes from using a budget
Being able to make work decisions that aren’t just about money
Small changes Pam made in managing her money that made a huge difference
Recommendations for menu planning (Paprika app) and bugdeting (YNAB app)
Sarah’s life changing spice drawer reorganization
Pre-booking appointments to create structure for your schedule
Why processes and systems have to be fun and easy

Links, Corrections, and Whatnot

Paprika menu and grocery planning app.

You Need A Budget (aka YNAB).

Zoe, dietary testing and guidance.

We’re not supported by, paid by, or affiliated with any of these brands.

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Transcript

This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

{Intro Music}

[00:00:08] Pam: Before we get started today, I wanted to take just a second to thank everyone who has shared episodes, who has sent texts with encouragement and saying they are really enjoying the content that we’re producing. It’s really, really meaningful and, it really helps us when you share our videos and our podcasts with other people so that we can reach more people and get the information to people that it can help the most. So thank you everyone who has done that, who has reached out and who has shared. Um, if you have a second, we would love comments on the video about topics that you want to hear us talk about and positive reviews on Apple podcasts.

It really does help us reach new people.

[00:00:51] Sarah: Absolutely. And like Pam said, really every voice matters and every idea matters. We’re getting our ideas together for topics for the fall and winter and would absolutely love to hear from you and hear what, what you’re thinking about lately and what you’d love to hear our thoughts on.

[00:01:10] Pam: So today we have what could be an interesting topic because we might disagree on some of it. I think that’s going to be, um, really interesting conversation. So we have this idea, uh, that we’ve been tossing around about how in order to do meaningful things in your life, um, they’re frequently the things that you feel like you have to like make time for, because life takes up, you know, 90% of your time.

So in order to have that time to do the meaningful things, how do you make time for it? How do you make the redundant or mundane things in your life, take less time, effort and mental space? This is something I am really big on. I wasn’t before. I wouldn’t consider myself like a process person or a habit person, or even a routine or schedule person.

I, I, I don’t actually like feeling restricted. But I’ve realized that if the restriction comes from outside, it’s when I don’t like it, when it’s self imposed, and when I feel the positive effect of the habit or the process, then I really enjoy it, and it’s, it’s comforting to me, to have that kind of daily flow.

But our lives are very similar in a lot of ways, but also very different. I’m not a parent. I’m only responsible for my time and my schedule. And you are a parent, you have two kids. So your schedule is not always under your control. You’ve got a lot of other considerations. So, um, yeah, I just want to dig into that.

[00:02:53] Sarah: Yeah, I’m excited. And I have to admit when I first read your notes, because Pam and I, uh, for the listeners, share a Google Doc back and forth with our loose ideas, uh, for the show content and what we want to cover. And when I read Pam’s, I sort of thought, oh, my gosh, like, Pam is just a master at organization and I’m really not as skilled at this, you know.

Yeah. Um, and in fact, I shared with you a couple of months ago that my word for the year, you know, how people can pick like one, one theme, one word for the year. Mine was actually a very, uh, unsexy word of organization. Because for me, uh, I love the concept of routine and restriction. And yeah, you know, as you mentioned, Pam, I’ve got the kids and I’ve got a dog and in addition to that, I have some of my own aversions. Like one thing I noticed about you is you seem really open to like how technology can help you. You’re like, Oh yeah, I’ll just spend some time learning this program and implementing it. Whereas I’m like, Oh my God, I need to learn it. And I’ll have this sort of disproportionate sense of overwhelm around it.

So I’m excited to dig into this because I, I agree in principle and sometimes in reality around routines making, um, our good habits stick. So, um, yeah, excited to see what’s there and what your suggestions are for it too.

[00:04:25] Pam: It’s really interesting that you brought up, like, my willingness to use technology to help, because I actually think of myself as a very analog person. I love paper and pen, right? I don’t default to technology being the first thing,

[00:04:43] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:04:43] Pam: But I think that once I’ve developed a system, then I can bring in technology to make that system easier and better.

A few things are coming to mind. Like I used to be, I used to use a paper planner every day. I would write out what I needed to get done and what my priorities were, and it was physically on paper. And that worked really well to develop my flow in my system and what I needed to track and what was actually important.

And then once I had that system in place, I transitioned into using a project management system. So I don’t think software or technology is the first place I go, I think that that’s like, that’s like later on down the road once you’ve got the basis for what your system is, and then you can go, Oh, now I can kind of take this to the next level.

So I want to make sure that people don’t think like, Oh my God, I have to, you know, get software or get a system or whatever. When, when we start talking about organization and systems, like it literally can be a checklist on a piece of paper.

[00:05:46] Sarah: Yeah. That’s, that’s my style. Though I’m opening up to the, to the tech,

as you know, step by step. Um, yes. All right. But you are very systems oriented.

[00:05:59] Pam: Very much. Yes.

[00:06:01] Sarah: So let’s talk a little bit about that.

[00:06:03] Pam: What got me here is I’ve got a lot going on, right? I’m a business owner. I have this podcast. I have other things that I want to do and I also just like having a lot of free time. I need a lot of space in my life to read and learn things and have hobbies and things that are not work and responsibility. I’m the type of person that if I feel overworked and overwhelmed, it stresses me out and it affects the rest of my life. So it’s been a very intentional decision that I need to make sure that my day is spent efficiently. So I’m not spending hours every day on the mundane things that have to happen every day.

I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about what I’m going to eat today because I have a process in place, which we’ll talk about in a second. I don’t put any thought into what my workout is going to be because it’s the same thing at the same time every day. All of these things that are very important for physical and mental health and that can kind of be stressful and things that, you know, there’s a lot of guilt around or,

[00:07:12] Sarah: Like guilt, Like guilt, if you’re not doing it, for example.

[00:07:15] Pam: Yes. Yeah. Or, or not doing, you know, like guilt around food. If you are eating junk food because you didn’t have anything planned, or you don’t have anything healthy in the house, and then you feel bad about that later.

Those are all things that kind of like pile up, and can load a lot of extra stress and anxiety, and just negative feelings on your system and that affects the rest of your life.

So that intention to have a lot of space in my life for things that I enjoy requires that everything else that I do be in a system and be things that I don’t have to put a lot of thought into.

So I’ve mentioned food a couple of times. That is one that is really important to me and something that I have processed. So it sounds, it does sound a little crazy when I tell people for the first time, like what I do, but every weekend I plan out what we’re going to have for dinner for the entire week ahead.

[00:08:22] Sarah: yeah.

[00:08:23] Pam: I have a system that used to be paper and pencil, but I’ve recently started using an app and all of the recipes are in there and my grocery list is in there. And so I spend maybe an hour over the weekend figuring out what we’re going to eat throughout the week.

[00:08:36] Sarah: and it’s just your dinners that you’re plotting out. So you

plot out seven dinners.

[00:08:41] Pam: yeah, just dinners.

I eat the exact same thing for breakfast every morning. And, um,

[00:08:46] Sarah: more to come on that.

[00:08:50] Pam: because my breakfast is crazy.

[00:08:52] Sarah: It’s unique. It’s

unique.

[00:08:54] Pam: unique.

It’s unique. Yes.

[00:08:56] Sarah: Okay, but I want to talk about the dinners first. Like, do you repeat, so you have all the recipes stored on the app and then that’s, that’s cool. So they’re all saved there so you can just pull them out or add new ones. Like, does the app find new recipes on the internet or have it,

[00:09:14] Pam: Yeah, so

[00:09:15] Sarah: type them in yourself?

[00:09:16] Pam: the app that I’m using is called Paprika and it was like $5 to buy it, um, but it, I’m loving it so far. But yes, so I, I’m in the process of taking all my paper recipes and getting them in there, but then literally any recipe that’s on the internet, you can download into the app. So it’s all there.

And then with one click, you can add everything in the recipe to your shopping list or choose what you need and what you don’t need. You can keep your pantry, like everything that you have in the pantry in there, so it already knows what you have and what you don’t need to pick up. So it’s time saving in that sense.

[00:09:51] Sarah: All right. Knows everything about you.

[00:09:56] Pam: It knows when I need sugar.

[00:09:58] Sarah: Oh my gosh.

[00:10:00] Pam: and then, so like, that’s the, the simplest thing is that I menu plan. I do put a little bit more effort into it in the sense that like, you know, I make sure that we have fish one meal and, you know, maybe shrimp another meal. And we rotate chicken, pork, you know, beef. So I don’t have two of the same proteins in a row.

And we don’t have two of the same cuisine styles in a row. It’s a little bit more involved than just picking seven meals, but that’s my choice,

[00:10:29] Sarah: Sure.

[00:10:30] Pam: That’s optional. Um, so then I go and I do the grocery shopping for the entire week for all of our meals, breakfast, lunch, dinner, everything that CK and I both need for the entire week.

So then we don’t get to Thursday and go oh my god, there’s no food in the house. Now I have to find time to go to the grocery store. And when are we going to do this? And, you know, and so it’s just taken care of for the week. And I don’t have to think about it at the end of the workday when I’m tired and out of mental energy I don’t have to then also figure out what we’re going to eat.

[00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah. No, listen, I was only introduced to the concept of a meal plan. Maybe five or six years ago, and I thought, where was I living before that I didn’t do this? But somebody in my neighborhood actually ran like a meal prep meal planning challenge and she introduced the concept and you know, it made so much sense and definitely we’ve noticed because my version of what you do is like the 50% version.

It’s, it’s paper and it’s like basically a week calendar. And I just separate breakfast, lunch and dinner and, and jot down what we’re going to have. Um, and we try to do it on the Sunday. So if it’s a busy Sunday, we’ll forget and then sort of regret it the whole week when

exactly what you’re saying might happen, happens, where it’s

Tuesday and it’s like, oh, you know, shit.

What are we going to have? And then scrambling through the cupboards and scrounging something up or ordering in or whatever it is. So I’ve certainly noticed the benefit. That you eat better, you’re, you’re not wasting food, um, which is, you know, just horrible thing to do on so many levels. Um, and that decision fatigue, because even sometimes like, well, it will be sometimes really simple, like chicken or pasta.

It’s really not an evolved recipe, but even when you have that one anchor, it’s

like, oh, okay, now that I have this one clue, my brain can figure out what else I’m going to do. Yeah. Make with the chicken or how I’m going to prepare it. So it doing, it’s goes back to that habit planning, right? Of making it easy and making decisions in advance.

It really does pay off

[00:12:44] Pam: It does. Yeah. Doing it in bulk, like all at once,

[00:12:48] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:12:49] Pam: is so much less effort than breaking it into every single time you have to do it.

[00:12:55] Sarah: Okay. And I’m going to guess that with the app, with the paprika app, you, you can share an account so I could, my husband and I could both log into the same plan.

[00:13:05] Pam: Yeah. Yeah. You definitely can. We don’t do that. CK will happily eat whatever I put in front of him. So…

[00:13:12] Sarah: right. We’re definitely, we definitely share the cooking and prepping responsibilities on, for dinner, so I think, I’m gonna check this out. I think I could be ready to upgrade this.

[00:13:22] Pam: Alright!

[00:13:23] Sarah: This process.

[00:13:25] Pam: Okay. Well, that was an easier sell than I thought it was going to be.

[00:13:30] Sarah: Well, I like the idea that it’ll just find the recipes on the internet

[00:13:34] Pam: Yeah.

[00:13:35] Sarah: and pop them in. Okay. Now let’s talk about breakfast and lunch.

[00:13:39] Pam: Okay. So for me, breakfast is one of those things that I can kind of take or leave. Um, I typically do intermittent fasting. So I’m not really that hungry in the morning. It’s right after I’ve worked out. So, um, I’m not really that hungry, but I tend to get really busy during the late morning and early afternoon.

So I’m trying to, I have made it a habit to have breakfast, even if I’m not necessarily hungry, because then I don’t find myself at lunch, ravenous and digging through the pantry for chips or something like that. So I start every day with the exact same breakfast so I don’t have to think about it. And it’s also.

Um, very healthy. So my day is anchored in a healthy choice. It’s the, you know, I, whatever happens for the rest of the day, I started out with a healthy breakfast. So in my world, what that healthy breakfast looks like is half an avocado mixed with about half a cup of sauerkraut, which I realize sounds really gross and and weird, but I promise you it is really good because the fat in the avocado cuts the sourness of the sauerkraut.

But then you’re getting fiber and healthy fat in the avocado, which is filling, and then the fermented cabbage in the sauerkraut, which is great for your gut. And then I also have about half a cup of black beans, again, gut health fiber. Uh, and then I have an egg and a piece of 20 grain something or other toast with a little bit of butter on it every day.

And I love it. And it sounds weird to everybody else, but it works for me. And I know that I’m starting out my day healthy.

[00:15:22] Sarah: I love it. And I do love all the little bits and bobs. I mean, I don’t sound that shocked right now. Cause I’ve heard you, I’ve heard you explain the breakfast before. And this is because you had a nutritionist consultation or you went through a process to identify some of these foods.

[00:15:38] Pam: Yeah,

I did a program called ZOE, which I really recommend to anyone who is interested in improving their nutrition or finding out about their gut health or their glucose response, like their insulin response to foods. It was really eye opening to me. I thought that I was eating a healthy diet and I was like, Oh, some of this stuff is not actually great for my body personally because everyone is different.

So yeah, I made those changes after doing the ZOE program.

[00:16:07] Sarah: know, it’s funny when you say it, cause it’s reminding me of some of the typical breakfasts that you would find in Japan, because

as you know, I lived in Tokyo for three years and yeah, a typical, um, traditional Japanese breakfast, of course, there are many, but one that that you might find, uh, a traditional style is an egg, raw egg, natto,

which is fermented beans,

[00:16:31] Pam: hmm. I’ve had it?

[00:16:33] Sarah: you’ve had it?

Okay.

Rice. Um, some rice. Um, I believe a little piece of salmon as well. A small piece of salmon. And I might be forgetting some pickled radishes. I’m, you know, don’t quote me on all the details, but something about the fermented, you know, the mixture of the fermented food in a small amount with the, with the fat and the protein of the egg.

So also, you know, to someone new to Japan, not used to that, not used to that breakfast, it could look shocking

to see that. Um, and yet it’s, You know, been a breakfast of choice for generations. I mean, I don’t know how many hundreds of years, but I’m guessing for a long time.

[00:17:16] Pam: Yeah, that’s really interesting.

[00:17:17] Sarah: Yeah. So, okay. So again, I’m, the 50% of. version. And then I would say the non sauerkraut 50%. So I have a couple of, I, like you, I try to start with a good breakfast because then I know if things go off the rails later, we decide to go out. I feel, okay, well I started with a great breakfast and I can feel proud of that. So I, you know, tend to do a smoothie, a yogurt and granola, possibly toast, toast and egg.

Um, I’m pretty, I’m pretty down with my morning smoothies

[00:17:55] Pam: And then with lunch, um, that is a meal that is a little bit more flexible in my schedule. So on hot days, I do a smoothie. I don’t like having smoothie when it’s cold because it makes me cold and I’m already cold. So during the winter, don’t do a lot of smoothies, but dinner leftovers, um, or I will even repeat my breakfast.

Because I like it, it’s healthy, it’s easy, it takes five minutes to make, and, um. Then I, I don’t end up, like, the worst thing is if I don’t have something easy to eat that is also healthy, I will snack. I will end up in the pantry going, oh, some chips and, you know, nuts. And, oh, there’s a chocolate bar. Like, I’m, it’s very easy for me.

And then those, like, highly palatable things I’ll just, like, eat while staring at my phone and end up regretting. So…

[00:18:45] Sarah: for sure.

I love, yeah.

I love the, you know, when you’re talking about the no decision, like having the same breakfast again. It’s reminding me of those you know, office uniforms… like it started in tech, like you would just wear a hoodie and flip flops or

whatever it is, having your capsule wardrobe and not needing to make that wardrobe decision in the morning.

[00:19:07] Pam: Yeah. Yeah. The Steve Jobs look.

[00:19:10] Sarah: That’s it. The Steve Jobs look. Yeah,

[00:19:14] Pam: We’re all going to be in black turtlenecks. Well, so that’s a good thing to talk about here is that we’re talking about all these processes and like doing the same thing and whatnot. And for some people that gets boring. Some people don’t want to eat the same thing every day. Some people don’t want to wear the same thing every day.

You know that? And that is something you have to take into consideration is like, what’s realistic for me. I would, however, encourage people to try at least having two or three things that are. Um, meals that they, they have ready and that they can reliably enjoy and have, because you might surprise yourself.

You might think like, Oh, I need something different every day. But if you actually sit down and think about like what you’ve eaten for the last week, I bet so much of it is the same thing over and over again and you’re just really not realizing it. Like, you know, if you’re having cereal for breakfast or whatever, like they come in different shapes and sizes, but it’s all the same thing.

So you’re probably having less variety than you think you are. So if you just find something that you enjoy and that, you know, tastes good and is healthy and is easy and fits into your plan and your schedule, um, it’s, it’s probably not as boring as you think that it is.

[00:20:32] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And then save yourself time and energy. Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention, um, that came up for me as I was reflecting for this session was around meals. And the fact that my processes, or lack thereof, around meals has also evolved a lot over the years. Right? I was reflecting, um, back before we had kids, I loved cooking and I would often look up a recipe, go to the market, the farmer’s market, buy the ingredients, spend a couple hours making it, and it would be a real source of joy.

And I had, you know, a cookbook, I still have it, where I would write down recipes. We’d be at someone’s house and I loved what they made and I would write it all down. And meal prep was something that I loved and savored. And then as soon as I had kids that really stopped, um, because I didn’t want to make the time for it and that’s fine.

I thought, well, you know, I’m nurturing my kids and I’m building a business and I had many other priorities. One would be exercise for myself, like keeping the house organized, whatever it was. So many things that cooking just didn’t seem that interesting to me. So it became really functional.

Like what can I do the fastest, the least amount of prep that was. You know, as healthy as possible, like salmon and broccoli. Okay. Let’s have that all the time. So the joy and the fun of it was really different. And then now that my kids are a little bit older and I have more time, I’m really rediscovering and remembering, Oh yeah, I can give myself permission to spend a couple of hours doing that.

And maybe that does feel like a worthwhile use of my time. Whereas for the past, you know, seven, eight years, ten years it really didn’t. Uh, so that’s been an interesting reflection just to see how my evolution with it

has changed.

[00:22:36] Pam: Yeah, I mean, that’s another great point that just because… You enjoy or don’t enjoy something right now doesn’t mean that that won’t change in the future. So what we’re talking about here are processes to use when they benefit you,

[00:22:54] Sarah: Mm hmm.

[00:22:54] Pam: change when they don’t.

[00:22:56] Sarah: Yes.

[00:22:58] Pam: So the breakfast that I eat every day, that has been the breakfast that I eat every day for the last six months, but who knows what it’s going to be six months from now.

I may stop enjoying it. So it’s not about like, create a system and be rigid and never change. Like it’s what makes sense right What am I spending time on right now? What do I have time for right now? And what do I enjoy? What makes me feel good? And. It’s not, it’s not about processes or, or rigidity for the sake of processes. It’s about feeling

[00:23:27] Sarah: A hundred percent. And it’s not about being punitive with yourself.

It’s about creating more space in your brain and in your life.

[00:23:36] Pam: Yes.

[00:23:37] Sarah: So anything we can do to make it fun, is a win.

[00:23:40] Pam: Absolutely. So a couple of the other things that I had on here for processes that are my routine. Um, I talked a little bit about working out. That has always been something in my life that was a struggle. I found that unless I had a trainer or someone to work out with, it, it never stuck. Like I never could have a process for working out that worked for me until just recently. So, um, there was a lot of things that went into that, which was finding something that I enjoyed doing and that I could do every day that didn’t bother my body in any way, or hurt joints, or, um, that didn’t rely on the weather. Like, I used to think I was going to try and jog every day.

But then where I live when it’s 115 degrees in the summer, I’m not jogging. So it took a lot. I mean, literally two decades of trying to figure out what works for me and what I can do on a regular basis. Just got a rower and for whatever reason, I love it. And that works for me. So first thing in the morning, I like roll out of bed, put on my clothes and get on the rower. That is my system. That’s my process. It’s what works. And there’s no question. I don’t have to like go through that battle with myself of, am I going to do it today? And do I have time to do it today? Like it’s done. And then I feel great the rest of the day.

Cause I’m like, Knocked out breakfast, knocked out a workout.

[00:25:04] Sarah: You already won.

I already won.

I won my day.

[00:25:09] Pam: Yes, I’m already ahead.

[00:25:10] Sarah: Yes.

[00:25:11] Pam: Yeah, but I know that that is definitely something that’s really hard, with kids, because when you wake up in the morning, a dog and, and kids… they need your attention. So that’s not going to work for everyone.

[00:25:22] Sarah: Yeah. It’s not going to work for me. Um, despite, you know, my having, wanting it to work so many times in my life, A) I’m not really a morning person and B) if I could start my morning on my own terms, then I would be a morning person, just a later morning person. Um, so yeah, that, that doesn’t work.

But I do, you know, like you, I have a chosen exercise method. It’s the Peloton. I have my Peloton bike and I have the app and I have my favorite trainers. And in fact, I just did a great Cody Rigsby – anyone who knows Cody knows how lovable he is – ride before our, our call today.

So having that, my selected sort of method, trainers, app makes it way easier versus being spoiled for choice.

And thinking, will I go to the gym, you know, I canceled my gym membership during COVID and so I do one of their various routines as often as I can. So again, sort of a version of what you do.

[00:26:27] Pam: Yeah. And, and I love that, that it’s just not really having the, like a lot of choices. Like I’m going to work out. This is what I’m going to do. You might pick a different trainer or a different program for the day, but it’s like, you don’t have to. You don’t get in that situation where you start thinking about, Oh, well, should I run today?

Or should I ride the bike? Or should I lift weights? Or should, you know, like you get into this, there’s all these choices. And then, so you just don’t do anything.

[00:26:55] Sarah: A hundred percent. And actually when, when my clients are wanting to integrate some kind of new, um, health routine, like walking every day or, or some kind of exercise, some type of fitness into their life, what we’ll talk about is, okay, how can you pre plan this for the next week or two weeks?

Write out, just where you’re going to go, what you’re going to listen to. Are you going to listen to a podcast? If which one, you know, again, to pre make our decisions.

[00:27:26] Pam: So if you make the decision when you’re excited about it, then it’s already set. So then when the time comes and you’re like, I don’t really want to go for a walk. Like it’s already set. You’re like, this is my time. This is the podcast that I’m going to listen to.

And maybe you’re more excited about it cuz you’ve got a plan.

[00:27:40] Sarah: Yeah. Or at least you’re less resistant. Cause if not, your brain might have a temper tantrum and be like, how am I supposed to figure out if I should jog or, or do a weights workout? You know, your brain will just think it’s too much,

[00:27:52] Pam: Yeah, yeah. I think about that a lot when I’m rowing, because I’ve made a commitment that I do 35 minutes every day, no matter what. And at the beginning, you’re like, my brain is a jerk, right? 15 minutes in, it’d be like, well, you really, you know, you really only need to do 20. Like, maybe you should just, you know, quit early today.

And it took a long time of me, like, talking back and saying, we’re doing 35 minutes. That is what we’ve committed to. And I feel like I’m, so I’m like five weeks into this routine and just this week, I feel like that part of my brain has quieted down and stopped trying to get me to quit early. It’s finally realized like, oh, she’s actually, she’s actually sticking to it this time.

She’s actually doing what she said she was going to. Yeah. So you have to kind of build in those those boundaries with yourself and your commitment to it and take away the decisions. If I was like, you can do 20 to 30 minutes, of course I’m going to do 20, right?

[00:28:46] Sarah: Yeah, for sure. No, I love what you’re saying because it’s a reminder that it does take time, but with time, the resistance will lessen.

[00:28:56] Pam: yeah.

[00:28:56] Sarah: All right. So we’ve talked about food. We’ve talked about movement. What’s next?

[00:29:04] Pam: Well, we can quickly talk about organization, just kind of general in life in your house or your office. Um, this is one that it took me a long time to come around to. I was a messy person. I was a very messy kid. First of all, like you couldn’t see carpet in my bedroom. I was, I was not a put things away kind of person.

And then, even as an adult, like there were the areas of the house where other people could see, I kept clean, but like if you went in my bathroom or my closet, it was a disaster because I

[00:29:37] Sarah: Right. It’s like you open the door and everything falls.

[00:29:40] Pam: yeah, like cartoon style. Yes.

[00:29:42] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:29:43] Pam: Yeah. And that made. Life harder because then, you know, you go to get dressed and you’re like, oh, is that sweater clean?

Where is it? It’s laying on the shelf and like to, you know, just it. There was no system in place and so every time I needed something, it made everything harder or nothing was ever clean. So then

[00:30:04] Sarah: I understand all this very well. Yeah.

[00:30:08] Pam: So then when you wanna clean the house, It’s a whole project, right? Because then, first of all, you got to put all the stuff away, and then cleaning is more in depth because nothing has been cleaned for a few weeks or whatever, so it makes the process of putting things away and cleaning more time consuming and something that you have to like commit an entire Saturday to because you let it go so long.

So it took me a long time, but over the last few years, I have gotten in the habit of, you know, when you take something out, put it back where it belongs. And, I have a system now for where the clean clothes go and where the stuff that you wore once that isn’t quite dirty, but also isn’t totally clean.

And, you know, the laundry and everything. So, things don’t, get cluttered. They don’t build up. And so then cleaning the house is a quick thing because it’s just, you know, wipe stuff down or do the vacuuming or whatever, because you don’t have to go through the whole process of putting away all the stuff that you should have put away two weeks ago.

[00:31:12] Sarah: Yeah. I’m also thinking like you guys did a significant move recently.

[00:31:18] Pam: We did. two years ago

[00:31:19] Sarah: that process… So just two years ago in that process, did you get a lot of decluttering done.

[00:31:26] Pam: Yes, we also moved into a much larger house, so have a lot more space to put stuff away now. We definitely got rid of a lot of stuff, but now that we’ve been here for two years, you get more stuff. But having more space is a luxury, and obviously helps with that. Yeah.

[00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. I mean, it’s, I would say, well, it’s all relative. I would say our home isn’t huge. It’s on the smaller end and we have four people and a Labrador. So we have bodies, right?

And I heard this too, like, Oh, you’re going to get a home or a living room and a sofa, and then you’ll see your kids get bigger because at the beginning, obviously like they’re babies and then they’re little, and they just have like these little tiny bodies and everyone can fit on the sofa.

And then people’s bodies get bigger. And then if they have friends come over, then that’s another body. So you really do realize, oh, the space is finite. And so kids bringing things in and then their hobbies change. So if one kid is into sports for a while, then all that gear… suddenly you need to get the gear and then it’s everywhere.

And then after a practice, it comes home and it’s sitting there. And then do you really have the energy at 9:30 PM to put it away? Then look at it the next morning. It’s like, Oh, there it is. I don’t want to touch that. And so it can kind of become part of the view. Right.

And then that hobby might disintegrate, or a new hobby might come in, or it might be a new season. So there’s always stuff. So I feel like the process of decluttering is huge. Oh, and then on top of that, two of us work from home,

[00:33:05] Pam: Yeah.

[00:33:06] Sarah: right? So, work related, office related. I guess my point is I love the idea of putting everything away, and having a place for everything, but it’s just not… it’s, it’s my dream.

It’s not my only dream. It’s a dream. But I also definitely have bigger dreams because I think in this situation, it would just be so hard to do that. So my biggest goal in that realm is to be really intentional about what we bring into the house and just like give things away. Don’t buy them or try to declutter as much as possible in service of staying organized because I really…

This is something that doesn’t come naturally to me, like keeping things organized. And now I’ve got to keep my own stuff organized, my work stuff, which is super important to keep organized. Many different classes, different clients, different projects, so that all has to be organized. And then the kids!

That just seem to get, you know, less organized with age and have more needs. Sometimes I feel like I’m basically their personal assistant, you know, so, um, yeah, I love the idea of everything in its place and. It doesn’t happen. So I would say

I’m the important things in their place as often as possible.

[00:34:29] Pam: Yeah. And like you said, it’s a good idea. It’s great in theory, and if it works for you, good! All of these things I’ve been working on and putting in place for decades. So I don’t want people to listen to this and first of all, people are going to think that I’m like some, crazy person who would be a nightmare to live with because it’s like… luckily CK is also very, routine oriented and very into processes.

But as we said, our lives are very different. There’s a reason I don’t have children.

[00:35:04] Sarah: right?

[00:35:06] Pam: That was never part of my plan. And, even having other people’s kids around for a little while, I’m like, no, that’s, that’s, this is not how stuff goes. So, you know, that, that’s my life. I like things to be processed.

I like things to be systemetized.

[00:35:21] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:22] Pam: So, so it’s different. But the biggest change and the thing that I think allowed the most space in my life over the last 10 years is something that we’ve brought up a few times, which is budgeting and money. Just having a solid control over finances and having a system around that.

I used to definitely live paycheck to paycheck and, money would come in and I would scramble to pay the bills that were due and then it was like, what’s left over? And, and it was, that kind of normal way that I think most people handle money because we’re not taught how to budget.

We’re not taught what to do with money. So that carries a lot of anxiety. And I know, I think there, you know, there was a study that said that, 80% of people are worried about money every single day. And that’s also one of the biggest factors in divorce is arguments over finances. So for me, developing a budgeting system that gives me the peace of mind that at whatever income level I’m at, because I work in a business that it fluctuates, I have some great months and some not so great months.

Um, whatever income level at, I’m always a month ahead in paying my bills. So that when invoices go out, that’s for the future. The money that I have today is paying the bills that are due in 30 days.

Budgeting is scary for a lot of people. Money is a really charged topic. So I don’t want people to hear this and think that they have to, you know, dive in get all their finances in control overnight.

That’s not gonna happen, but, there’s a software that I use. Technology! It’s called You Need a Budget, and it’s extremely simple to use, it’s very low cost, they have a YouTube channel and a podcast where they teach you all of the theories behind the way they approach budgeting. And it’s different than anything that I’d ever used before because they teach you that process of getting a month ahead with paying your bills and, and how to do that.

And that was, I think, the biggest thing for me is, is feeling confident that whatever happens. 30 days from now, I’ve got it covered with the money that I have , in my bank account right now. So that took away a lot of the anxiety that I had around money, which then freed up my, you know, I was able to make different decisions in my business.

If I didn’t want to work with a client because they weren’t making me happy, I could choose to no longer work with them because I didn’t have to for the money. So it’s not just about. It’s not just about the budget or just about the money, it’s about freeing up that space in your life to make decisions that aren’t just about money.

[00:38:32] Sarah: I am so inspired by your relationship with budgeting and money, because it really is the flip to how so many people feel around money, which is a feeling of fear and anxiety and overwhelm

[00:38:49] Pam: Yeah.

[00:38:50] Sarah: and stepping into running my own business full time. And my partner is also artist entrepreneur.

So we no longer had that steady paycheck coming in. There’s definitely a lot of unknowns. It’s definitely a huge learning curve, with a lot of expenses. And so, I’m familiar with both ways. You know, I can go from being like, Oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming and how do I learn this? And how do I make sure that we’re making the right choices or making enough money or saving enough, or doing it right.

To feeling like, oh, this is possible and there are ways of doing it. And, it’s freeing as you’re saying. So I’m I guess, compassionate to both sides of that. And I really admire how you’ve, put such a focus on managing your finances. And I also know that it’s something that you’re passionate about helping people face and manage in such a kind and nonjudgmental way.

So I think that’s a really cool thing about you.

[00:39:52] Pam: Thank you. Yeah, it’s, it’s great that I enjoy it. And I do. I always have. I’ve always loved money. I have a degree in finance. It’s, it’s something that…

[00:40:01] Sarah: oh, I didn’t that. Okay.

[00:40:03] Pam: But I think anyone can do it. It doesn’t have to be this big scary thing. There’s a lot of emotions around it. And you can work through that with a coach or a therapist.

That’s all doable, but building a system and just like, just getting a handle on it, even if it’s literally just sitting down and figuring out what your bills are and how much you’re making and seeing how that lines up. Cause a lot of people don’t know, right? They’re using credit card debt, and they’re not even looking at it because it’s scary.

[00:40:36] Sarah: A hundred percent. And I know from when I do sit down with my partner and we have our monthly check ins. it’s always a good idea.

[00:40:44] Pam: Yeah.

[00:40:45] Sarah: And yeah, thank you for the tip on YNAB. I’ve, I always hear about You Need A Budget, so I might check out the software.

[00:40:52] Pam: They’re great. I really like them. They were like the, the first thing that worked for me and that I started using, and then you learn how they do it, and then you can start figuring out your own little ways to make the system work for you. The really big change that I made through using that software was looking ahead at big expenses, or even just annual expenses, like, you know, we pay for HBO once a year or something like that.

So that’s like $150 that comes up once a year, which isn’t that much, but if you have to find $150 in a month. That you weren’t planning on, that can really be a lot some people who don’t have that much sitting around. So if you set aside one twelfth of that every month throughout the year, then when the charge comes, you’ve already got the money.

You literally don’t have to think about it. You don’t have to come up with money for a bill. And then all of the other expenses in life that you know are going to happen, you may not know when, but they’re going to. Like at some point your car is going to need service. At some point your house is going to need work.

All of those little things. Every month you just kind of like have little buckets and put, you know, 5 over here and 10 over here. And it’s just sort of like, a little insurance policy for all these things and it makes it less stressful.

[00:42:13] Sarah: It provides a good sense of agency too, to know like I’m being responsible for my life. I’m taking responsibility here and I, and I know how I think is, can feel really thrilling.

[00:42:28] Pam: Yeah. And, uh, and knowing if something happens, when something happens, cause it will, I’m prepared. I’ve got it covered.

[00:42:38] Sarah: Okay. So this is a really good link to what I wanted to talk about next, which is what helps. So for those of us, who don’t have all the systems, up and running yet that we want, or the automations, or we want to, improve one or more systems in our lives. I thought we could, end this conversation talking about some suggestions for how to bring more meaningful, again, meaningful systems into our lives.

And one idea that I wanted to bring up is having a partner in crime for something. So I thought for, in this example, I wrote actually, find a Pam! But to find someone, whether it’s, You know, I love the idea of a live person, but it could also be a software, you know, it could be a program, a coach, but you find somebody who has a natural inclination towards whatever the project is and to work with them.

So in the example of some of our work together, you’re really good at thinking like, okay, this is a project management software we can use. This is how we can break it up into dates. This is how we can look ahead. This is sort of one of the gifts that you bring to the table. And that was something I really welcome.

So, if you can find, something that you’re working on and you feel a little bit lost and it’s not coming naturally to you, that’s fine. It doesn’t come naturally to all of us, and we all need to get different kinds of help. So, to find somebody who you feel comfortable being honest with, who can bring that kind of organization or system or recommendation forward is a great idea.

Don’t think you need to do it on your own.

[00:44:25] Pam: You’ve got a crazy friend like me. Ask them for help.

[00:44:27] Sarah: And they’ll probably really enjoy helping.

[00:44:31] Pam: Oh yeah. Yeah. I will come organize your closet. Absolutely!

[00:44:36] Sarah: Gosh, I’m currently ordering a ticket for Pam to come to Toronto to look at my closet.

So ask your organized friends for help.

[00:44:43] Pam: Yeah. And don’t start with everything. Pick something that you want to focus on. It doesn’t have to be food or money or any of those big things, just, like, kind of pay attention in your life and find points of friction, right? Like, find that stuff that you feel like you’re spending too much time focusing on or doing over and over again or that are stressing you out.

Just look for those little points in life and focus on one thing. Like, how can I make this easier?

[00:45:12] Sarah: One thing at a time. And that reminds me, I find doing my whole house overwhelming, but I’ve read before, you pick one shelf or one area and you work on that. And I found that to be really excellent. So sometimes I’ll work on my front entryway.

And a couple of months ago I did my spice drawer, which was, you know, if you Googled like world’s messiest spice drawer, you would see probably an image of it. And I ordered, I went on Amazon and I ordered the little bamboo stands. And then I got the jars and they all matched and they had the stickers and I spent an evening and my daughter helped cause she loves systems and it was a joyful thing to do.

And every time I cook, I feel happy to open that drawer and I can see everything. And after decades of… probably we had five different packets of garlic powder because you could never find one. So you just would run to the corner store and buy a new one.

I’m like, I just have one and I can see it. It’s even alphabetized. So that was one thing I did. It has a huge payoff. I think all of the, the items cost me 120 bucks. It was, so it was a minimal investment for organizing all of my spaces and it was a big payoff. So that was one example of how I have little bits that are extra organized and it does bring me a lot of joy.

[00:46:41] Pam: Yeah, I love that. I’m excited about your spice drawer!

[00:46:44] Sarah: I’ll send you a photo.

[00:46:45] Pam: It can be something as little as that. You know, pick a drawer, work on…

[00:46:50] Sarah: Pick a drawer. Yeah,

[00:46:51] Pam: and, then every time you look at it, you’re happy.

[00:46:55] Sarah: Totally. And you’re like, I did that. Me.

[00:46:57] Pam: Yes, yes!

[00:46:59] Sarah: Me, I did that.

Yeah. So anything can be organized a step at a time. So we said find a friend, one thing at a time… oh, the other one I have is to pre-book as many things as possible into the future. So that’s your appointments with your dentist, your therapist, your accountant, your massage therapist, your accountability buddy, book it all every month or however often you’re seeing the people. That helps create a system.

[00:47:31] Pam: Yeah, it creates a system and it creates structure in your schedule. It prevents that last minute, oh, I can’t get in for the thing that I need. That, that is low hanging fruit. Absolutely. I love that.

[00:47:43] Sarah: Yeah. And I have one last suggestion and then maybe you have a last one after that. My last suggestion is to make it as fun and easy for you as possible. I’m all about making something fun. So for example, one thing I have systematized is reading. I read fiction every night before bed. It’s just a vital part of my day.

And the way that I’ve done that is I love beautiful looking books. So I order them from the library, or I order them from the bookstore. They’re sitting on my nightstand. They look great. I love my reading lamp. I love all my creams and lotions and potions and crystals by my bed, my journal, I’ve got it all. So it’s a little sort of sanctuary area, which will lure me.

You know, it can help lure me because I’m also a night owl. If I could, I would stay up till three o’clock in the morning, puttering around. So I need some bait. So this will help me and it’s there and then I will really enjoy the process of digging into my books. So that’s something that I do in advance.

I’ve made it fun. I’ve made it pretty, I’ve made it easy. So same with like when we’re thinking about templates, I know when I try to follow like project management or a budgeting template, When I know how to use it, when I find it visually appealing, it’s got a good interface, it makes it more enjoyable.

So spend some time, as Pam was saying, it’s not like, oh my god, I need a system. Download it the second. First, think about what your needs are and then find something that speaks to you and that you find pleasurable.

[00:49:14] Pam: Yeah, you have to enjoy the process, or at least, like, it can’t be something that’s more friction. You can’t be trying to make this less friction and then creating more friction over here. That isn’t going to be sustainable. It’s got to be something that feels good.

So my last point would be to keep an open mind, because I know a lot of people are going to hear this and shut down go, that’s not going to work for me. That doesn’t fit my life. That’s not who I am. I’m not going to like that, whatever it is. The immediate reaction to someone suggesting change is a roadblock.

[00:49:48] Sarah: Indeed.

[00:49:48] Pam: That’s natural. It’s normal. We all do it. Be aware when it happens and consciously be open to things changing. Consciously be open to trying something different. See how it works for you. If it doesn’t work, don’t keep doing it. Try something else. That’s okay. But if you have things that are friction, continuing to do the same thing, isn’t going to be any better.

So try something different and see what you like.

[00:50:22] Sarah: I love it. Keep trying. Okay. We’re rooting for you. If you want any further suggestions, feel free to reach out to us.

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