In this episode Pam & Sarah discuss:

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Malcolm Gladwell on why changing your mind can be so difficult

Clarification: When Sarah says cognitive bias, she means confirmation bias.

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This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

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[00:00:08] Pam: There’s this thing that happens when you become aware of an idea or even a thing, and then all of a sudden you see that thing everywhere. Like if you buy a new car, then all of a sudden everyone on the street has the exact same car in the exact same color that you have, and it’s called frequency illusion.

It just happens because you’re all of a sudden aware of a topic. But I kind of love when it happens, when I’m thinking about mindset shifts or new ideas that help me become a better version of myself because it’s like the universe is giving you a message that yes, this is a good thing for you to be focusing on or thinking about.

And it just starts showing you more content about the idea or, just kind of bringing it into your awareness. It’s like the simulation algorithm figures out that you’re into a topic and starts serving you more content about it.

That happened to me over the last couple of weeks when I started thinking about the topic of changing my mind and the power of it and how important it is for literally doing anything and growing and becoming the person that you want to be.

So it first came into my awareness because I had to go on Facebook to post about this podcast and I never go on Facebook. Like I literally haven’t been on there in years. But what happens is you go on social media and all of a sudden you start scrolling. It’s like, you just can’t help it. And so…

[00:01:45] Sarah: I know. Want to or not, it just happens.

You’re possessed. Your fingers become possessed.

[00:01:52] Pam: They totally do. So I got sucked in and I’m scrolling through this feed and I’m seeing people who I have not seen any updates from in five, maybe even 10 years. And they are completely different people than they were the last time I interacted with them.

So I’m starting to go through and I’m like, Oh, this person’s religious now. This person got a divorce and moved here. This person looks completely different. I’m starting to judge them. I’m like that kind of like, that’s not, that’s not them. That’s not who they are.

[00:02:26] Sarah: Because you know better.

[00:02:29] Pam: Because they’re not who I knew.

[00:02:30] Sarah: Who you think. ..Yeah. Yeah!

[00:02:32] Pam: So all of a sudden then I was like, oh my god, what if someone did this to my life. What if one of these people that I haven’t spoken to in five years, all of a sudden saw who I was now. They would have that same reaction of like, who does she think she is?

That’s not who she is. She’s pretending. This is, this is not who she is. So I started thinking about this concept of like changing and changing your mind and how we’re all just in a constant state of change, but at the same time, there are a lot of changes that we are resistant to or, um, that we could achieve if we didn’t have these stories about ourselves or about how other people saw us or about what we’re capable of.

And once I started thinking about that, then all of a sudden, you know, I started seeing podcasts and articles and news and everything and having conversations about the power of changing your mind and why it is so hard to do. So I thought it would be a great topic for us to dig into.

[00:03:47] Sarah: Three cheers for this topic because the topic of why is it so hard to change our minds is so resonant for me because it’s true.

It is hard. There are huge benefits. Growth is on the other side of change, adventure, experience. So much of what we want is on the other side of change. And yet actualizing that change can be really challenging. And I certainly, I mean, I know that for my own life and I also know it from my clients who hire me because they want change.

They’re so certain that they want change that they’re willing to invest in a coach. And yet when it comes to actualizing the change, most often they meet resistance. Just because it’s hard, not because anything is wrong with them or the process, but because actualizing it, brings up so many thoughts and feelings that are uncomfortable.

So there’s first the self awareness piece of knowing you want change. And then after that there’s actually taking action on it. So there’s so many steps to it. So it’s a very juicy topic.

[00:04:53] Pam: So we’re going to dig into why it’s so hard, the difference between having this fixed mindset that makes change difficult versus a growth mindset where you’re kind of going after change and seeking it out, what it means if you’re changing your personality, your stories about yourself, your maybe long held beliefs and just sort of what all of that looks like and, and how it all works together to make change so hard, but so valuable.

[00:05:28] Sarah: Yeah.

And my hope is by the end of it, you know, we can open the door a little bit more, for ourselves.

And also for, for listeners to think, um, That it is possible. Whatever those changes are, that there’s a little bit more, a little bit more room to walk through that door towards the change. It’s normal to feel resistance. There’s a lot of reasons for it, but it’s absolutely possible and doable. So I’m excited to explore these ideas.

[00:05:58] Pam: So thinking back on my scrolling through Facebook and starting to judge people for changing, I started thinking about how we want people to grow and succeed. And we want to grow and succeed. But then at the same time, we don’t want people to change. And we don’t want to change. Like you were just saying with your clients, like we, we want to achieve these things, but then like, it’s like, we want to achieve them without anything being different.

If that makes sense. And it’s just so bizarre that we crave change and we crave new things, but we don’t want to be different and we don’t want other people to be different. So like, what is that? Why is it so hard to change our minds. And what, what is that block in there that is stopping us from making those changes that we so desperately want?

[00:06:56] Sarah: So I think there are a couple of blocks. I’m going to start with one of them, which is we are scared of what we don’t know, right? We have a huge fear of uncertainty. One phrase that comes to mind is the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don’t know. And I regularly hear people use that to justify staying in workplaces, staying in different organizations, schools, programs, relationships, you name it. Thinking, well, at least I have a grasp of what this is. I don’t have a grasp of what the other thing is. It comes with risk. And because ultimately, our primal desire is to be safe.

So we want that self actualization, but even if we think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the self actualization is at the top, right? At the bottom is safety and security, right? So we, it might be perceived like we think the risk exists, whether the risk is actually as big as we might imagine it or fear it to be in our brains, it presents as a risk. And so we’re scared.

And so even if we feel attracted to that change or what might be on the other side when it comes to actualizing it, we think, well, no, that’s scary. I don’t know what that’s going to be like and I do know what this is like. So I’ll just stick with my status quo.

[00:08:20] Pam: And that’s so funny to think about. It’s so true. I’ve done it. Everyone’s done it. But if you are worried about the risk of change, you’re not thinking about the risk of not changing. Even though you feel safe and secure in what you know, there is significant risk in staying in an unhealthy situation or not making the change that will potentially make you happy.

So there’s this disconnect between what you think is risky and what actually is a risk to your health or safety or happiness.

[00:09:03] Sarah: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right, right? And I think that we often judge the new opportunity as riskier than staying with the existing one. Even though, as you said, of course, that comes at a cost. It comes at a price.

And that reminds me of a very, um, salient coaching question that sometimes comes up with my clients, which is exactly what you said. You know, if they said, well, I want to do this thing, but it’s risky. A counter question to that, or a next powerful question is, okay. And what’s the risk if you don’t say that thing that you want to say?

Or take that stand that you want to take or build that company or, or just take that action, make that change that you’re longing to, what’s the risk of not doing it?

[00:09:49] Pam: There’s also the, the exercise of playing out the worst possible scenario if you do make the change.

[00:09:56] Sarah: Mm hmm.

[00:09:57] Pam: And really taking it to it’s most ridiculous, and like, what is the worst that could possibly happen if I do this?

And most of the time you figure out that , the worst that could possibly happen probably isn’t as bad as you are like, catastrophizing it to be in your head. There’s always a solution or um, there’s always another change that you could make that could get you into a better place than you’re in right now.

[00:10:25] Sarah: Yeah. Very true.

So I have another reason, which is very common, and I notice it in myself a lot, which is cognitive bias. So what I mean by that is this idea that we, we make a decision. We say, this is what I stand for.

This is my choice. And then we are seeking, uh, evidence to support whatever choice we’ve made. And that might also include ignoring any type of information that might prove us wrong because it’s too much for us to take. We just want to believe that we’re right because we feel more secure in that answer.

We don’t want it to be shaken. So a really simple example is if there’s, for example, something that I want to buy, I was recently, as you know, buying flowers, which is now what I want to spend all my money on and I’ll be reading the reviews. And you might, it might have, you know, eight five star reviews and then four two star reviews.

And I just want to believe the eight star ones. So I’ll just skip over the twos. Just oh this person… this person must always write bad reviews, right? So my, I will just want to retain whatever it is that I want to choose.

[00:11:44] Pam: You look for evidence to support your stance.

[00:11:47] Sarah: Of course.

And then I say well, I read the reviews.

[00:11:50] Pam: There’s the cognitive dissonance part of that too, where we want to believe that we are a certain way. And if we start to change or change our minds about something, that starts to challenge who we actually are at our core.

[00:12:09] Sarah: And that can be so destabilizing.

[00:12:14] Pam: It can be, especially if it’s like a long held belief about what you can do or who you are or, anything, you know, you see people who, change religious beliefs or change, um, you know, leave a relationship, those kinds of things that are part of your identity, they’re so ingrained in who you are that changing that in even the slightest way can make you feel like, Oh, I’m a fraud, or I’ve failed because I’m no longer doing this thing that I’ve identified with for so long. So clearly there’s something wrong with me. I have failed at being that person that I thought I was.

And that can really, like you said, be really destabilizing and really, I think, keep people from making changes because they’re so tied to, this is who I am.

[00:13:08] Sarah: Yes. You know, what’s coming up for me when you described it that way, uh, many of the people who I work with, are considering pivoting from one sector to another.

And there are certain sectors, where I see a large trend where people really identify with that work. So for example, working in the arts is one because I coach a lot of people who are professional artists and writers and designers, and then I noticed as well, people who work in not for profit or social services, there’s a type of identifying with the work where it feels so aligned with your values and so aligned with your purpose and just with yourself that the idea of then pivoting to a different line of work, which is really just a different expression of yourself. It feels like a betrayal of yourself because it’s almost as though you’re abandoning this identity or this set of values. Whereas it really is just a different expression of what you want to do and how you want to spend your time and your energy right now in this moment.

Right? It’s not leaving everything behind, but it’s a new expression. Yet it can feel that way.

[00:14:18] Pam: And it doesn’t even have to be professional. As you’re talking about that, I was reflecting back a little bit on when I launched my first podcast, Not Bad Advice, and I really had this feeling of like, who do I think that I am?

I’m a marketer, I’m not a podcaster, I’m not, you know, whatever, I’m supposed to be to have a podcast. And when we recorded the first episode of that, like before we even published it… we didn’t publish it for months, but the night we recorded the first one, I couldn’t sleep because I kept waking up with anxiety about doing this thing that was not who I was.

And like, what are people going to think about me doing this? Because I didn’t have that story about myself, that it was something that I could or should do.

[00:15:03] Sarah: What was that process like? Because if we’re thinking about it in the context of changing your mind, your initial mindset was, you know, I’m a marketer, I don’t create podcasts.

And then suddenly you did make a podcast. You thought, oh, now I have to think of myself as a person who, who’s a podcaster. So how, and now, now look at you, right? Um, you, you fully embrace that expression of yourself. So what did it take for you to change your mind on that?

[00:15:32] Pam: Just doing it really. Um, just not giving into that anxiety and that fear and just sort of pushing forward.

Um, I definitely feel like I didn’t push as hard into it with the first podcast. Like looking back, I wish I had promoted it more and taken it more seriously. But I think that it was just sort of dipping my toe in the water and getting the experience and like, oh, I can do this, which allows me to now take, you know, do additional projects and, and work on this one with you.

[00:16:07] Sarah: I love it.

Okay. Taking it slow, doing it and taking it slow, doing it at your own pace.

[00:16:14] Pam: Yeah. Knowing like, yes, this is scary. Yes. I’m doing something new and that’s okay. And I’m going to be okay.

[00:16:22] Sarah: I’m safe.

[00:16:24] Pam: I’m safe. Yes.

[00:16:25] Sarah: Okay. Amazing. So we talked about fear of uncertainty, cognitive bias, slash cognitive dissonance. What’s another reason that comes to your mind, um, as to why it’s so hard for us to change our minds?

[00:16:39] Pam: I think habit is a huge part of it. We have thought processes that are automatic because they’ve just always been there.

And that is part of our biology that works for us because, if we had to make up our mind every single time we thought about something, it would be exhausting, right? We would never get anything done because we’d constantly be thinking about, Oh, how do I feel about this? How do I feel about this? And it would just, we’d never make any progress.

So we build these habits and these thought patterns that are shortcuts. So, you know, I don’t have to think about this over and over again. I already know what my answer is. I already know what my stance is. And then that becomes ingrained. It’s something that you don’t think about and it’s your automatic reaction to anything.

So, unless you’re just really conscious about what your beliefs are and what your stance is on a topic or who you think you are or any of that, unless you’re constantly kind of pushing yourself to question that, you don’t even think about it. You, you just are in this pattern and in this habit of having these thoughts, so it takes energy and effort to question those habitual thought patterns.

[00:17:57] Sarah: Yeah.

In one of the articles that I read, they were describing that as mental inertia and I love the, you know, blanket, you’re using habits. Well, we already have these other habits. It’s a well oiled machine or a well worn path in the brain. And so to change that is really hard. And again, I’m thinking of really big, um, mind changes.

For example, when people decide to leave like a cult, which I’ve watched many documentaries about, it’s, there, there’s so much, I mean, the cult worked, it indoctrinated their brain. And so even when they become aware and they say, oh, you shine a light and say, oh, okay, this is, I’ve been indoctrinated. I want to choose another thought, it’s exhausting to constantly be training your brain to go to that new thought, new thought, new thought.

And then even on a more minor, even if it’s a small change, it can still require that energy that we might not have because we are living busy lives.

[00:19:00] Pam: Right. Yeah. We don’t have, you know, any extra bandwidth to put into this kind of stuff when you’re thinking about like the big issues in your life that do require, you know, constant attention, whether it’s work or kids or anything.

But at the same time, I find that having a more flexible belief system or, um, like not holding on to stories or beliefs or, or even, um, opinions very solidly has made life easier.

I was thinking the other day about how there was, I don’t even remember what it was, but there was something where I was like, I don’t really like how this is going.

And then I literally just stopped and went I can change this. I don’t have to keep doing this..

And I was like, Oh my God, like, it felt so free to let go of whatever it was that now I can’t even think of what it was, but it was making me feel stuck.

And so I think that these habits and this mental inertia, it’s really helpful in a lot of ways, but at the same time, I think that it’s also draining and potentially taking up energy to like be so stuck in this is what I believe, this is who I am, this is what I do. It still takes a lot of energy to continue digging into that when all evidence is to the contrary.

Yeah, and that leads me to another reason related to what you’re saying, which is protection of our own ego.

That it can be painful when you’re talking about those beliefs, and a lot of times those beliefs are tied to our values. Right? That’s, it’s, it’s what we believe to be right and, and good for the world. And so, um, admitting that, oh, wow, I’ve been introduced to evidence or ideas that are making me challenge what I, you know, was singing from the rooftops or posting all over the internet, or, you know, having a fight at the family table.

It’s, it’s so, um, there’s so much polarization. In our society right now that holding tight to our beliefs has become so central to who we are. And then, you know, thinking, Oh my gosh, maybe I was wrong. Maybe there was a gap in what I believed. It’s like, I’m a complete failure. Like how could I not have like, it’s so instead of opening up to that conversation and saying, Oh, yeah, I think I maybe believe this about myself and I can see your point about this.

Well, we can’t do that. It’s just doubling down on that initial belief. And you’re right. That’s a huge amount of, of energy to kind of force it to be true. If maybe your thought about it has evolved with time and with experience and with information. Like it should! It should, we should be open to receiving more information on ideas.

And you can kind of, picture that by thinking about yourself 10 years ago. Like really think about what you thought then, how you dressed, you know, how you did your hair, what your career was, what you thought you were going to be like in 10 years. Like really look back at who that person was 10 years ago, and you’re going to see a lot of change and you’re going to.

See things that you’re like, Oh my God, I can’t believe that that’s what I thought was right. Or that I, you know, believed in or who I thought I was back then. And you can witness the changes that you have made kind of without intentionally making them. And think about like, everything is always changing.

So why shouldn’t you be able to change your mind? Why shouldn’t you adapt to new information?

[00:23:04] Sarah: We’ve talked a lot about, um, the influences from our own brain, holding us back from, actualizing the change, changing our minds.

And then there’s also social influences. So our own family, our own community, especially if it’s, um. You’re tied on a certain decision of believing a certain thing. Believing a, an or a school is the right place to be for your kids. Or, um, an a certain city or certain area is the right place to live in, or a certain way of eating right?

A certain way of eating this way, doing this kind of exercise, whatever it is. As soon as a community is rallied around it, there’s positive that comes from that. And then there’s also the challenge of, well, if I leave, I’m gonna be judged. I’m no longer gonna be. part of the group. Yeah. So whether it’s conscious or subconscious, um, it could be con a fam your family literally saying, you know, you do this and you’re out.

That’s a really extreme way, but certainly many families operate this way. Uh, or, or more subtle, as I was describing, you, you join something and then you change your mind about it and fear of being judged or left out from the group, which is painful. Really painful.

[00:24:23] Pam: It is. And that is something that is just built into our brains that we want to be part of a group because it’s safer.

So, like you said, changing your mind about that group, or the belief that that group has, that if you change, then you are no longer part of the in group, that’s a threat to your safety. It feels scary. It feels like, Oh, I’m losing something.

And humans are terrible at the idea of loss. We just want more and more and more. So that feeling of I’m going to lose this, that is so hard to overcome.

But the danger there, and I think kind of where you’re, you are leading and where you, um, mentioned a little bit ago about the polarization in society, that’s one of the real dangers of this inability to change our minds or to have nuanced ideas about something. You know, now it’s so much like you have to be on one side or the other, you have to take a stance on something, you have to have an opinion and it, and it better be the same as mine or else we’re not friends anymore.

And if a politician changes their mind, all of a sudden everyone gangs up on them for, you know, being a flip flopper or, you know, you’re not one of us anymore. Or like one of the really toxic examples is with science. Like the, the whole point of science should be that we decide something and then we get more information and change our minds.

Right. But we look at how science is treated now and people are like, well, that’s not what you said before. So what you’re saying now must be wrong too.

[00:26:03] Sarah: You were lying to us all along.

Right. Yeah. So it’s this really toxic environment where we. Don’t want anyone to change their minds or to hold on to an idea lightly, right?

To say like, I think this is the answer right now, but it might not be in a year. Or I think this is who I am right now, like I’m trying this on and it might not fit, but this is what I wanna do right now. And not feel like this has to be it forever.

I think Malcolm Gladwell referred to that idea as this is what I’m believing right now. Using that, um, idea of this is what I believe right now, or this is what I’m trying right now. It creates flexibility kind of in your everyday decisions and that flexibility and practicing that is what makes it so much easier or, at least a little bit easier when we’re talking about changing your mind about big things. Having that practice is, it’s a muscle, like we’ve talked about so many times, but these things that we want to do, they’re muscles that you have to work on. And so having that more flexible mindset through your everyday with little decisions makes it easier to have flexibility with bigger decisions.

I love that. And I think labeling it for yourself so you can validate it. For example, I was willing and open to change my mind on this particular situation, as more information came in and as my life changed and good for me that I was flexible enough. So almost reframing the narrative so that you celebrate that versus see it as a weakness.

When I think about some of the changes that we made as a family during COVID, right, there are certain, um, changes in terms of. Small things like, I remember my, Adam, my husband saying, Oh, I’ll never buy the kids. And then I’ll never buy a Nintendo switch. I would never do that.

Right? Well, guess what? Things change. We were trapped in the house. It was a big treat and he went out and bought it. Right? Or I would never send my kids to this kind of school or make this kind of change. And then reality changes. Their needs change. And we can adapt. So rather than see ourselves as, um, indecisive, why not reframe that and say, no, I’m decisive.

When, when the world is giving me different information, um, and I’m connected to that, I can make changes about what makes sense for myself or my family or my belief system based on, based on what I see in front of me right now, which is different than what I saw last week.

Why not own that? Instead of feeling that it’s a flaw.

[00:29:14] Pam: Well, if we think about everything in the world that is successful. It’s because it adapts, right? Evolution.

Businesses.

You’re like let’s make this really basic. It’s so true though.

Yeah. Being able to adapt to current situations, current information is the way to thrive and survive.

[00:29:33] Sarah: Yes. It’s a basis of leadership as well. Yeah.

[00:29:38] Pam: But I think one more thing that makes it so hard, going back to kind of the in group thing is… Even if it’s not that you’re going to be threatened to be kicked out of the family or the group, you’re going to have friends and family who still have this picture of who you are.

They’ve got their story about who you are. And if you are changing your mind about something significant or changing who you are in any significant way, there’s going to be a little bit of like a disconnect there and they may still treat you like you were the other person, or they may be resistant to your change.

I think this happens with everyone when you’re an adult and then you go back and you stay at home, like with your parents for a week, all of a sudden you turn back into a child, you react to them the same way and you start, you know, having the same, arguments or whatever it is that you had when you were a teenager.

And so the hard thing there is like how you communicate the change with people that are around you and how you can kind of stay with yourself as they’re catching up to your change. Because that’s really what’s happening, right? You’ve gone through this whole process of deciding that you’re going to change and then all of a sudden they’re like…

Oh, we’re not there yet, and, and some people are, are easier to, um, adapt than others are. One way that I’ve found that helps with that situation is encouraging change in positive ways in other people. So like celebrating when people around you change because then that makes them more likely to celebrate when you do.

[00:31:20] Sarah: You’re almost helping to create this atmosphere or ecosystem where change is allowed and celebrated and making and validating people’s choices in the process, because there’s nothing better than feeling that somebody sees you as you are, not as they want you to be, but they see you and accept you for who you are in that moment. So I love how you’ve, um, kind of flipped this conversation to be around. How can we, um, encourage others to feel comfortable changing?

[00:31:53] Pam: One thing that is coming up for me right now is how when we change or when we see other people change, feelings of hypocrisy can kind of start to come up, like, um, if you see someone changing in a way that is drastically different from who you know them to be you can kind of start to like judge them.

Like, what, who, you know that is not what you told me. That’s not how you were acting. Or you can perceive that people feel that way about you if you’re all of a sudden being a different person. So kind of following the same lines there of creating a, a environment where it’s okay to change. Having open communication about that and talking to people and being like, so I know that in the past I have said X and behaved in this way.

And I have learned this or realized that, you know, this is not who I am anymore. So you, you have to kind of alleviate that feeling of being a hypocrite or like having to consider that you are behaving or acting in a way that is completely different than the way you said before.

[00:33:10] Sarah: Yeah. And I think knowing that and being able to articulate it can be really helpful in certain relationships.

And I think sometimes it’s none of our business what other people think of us.

[00:33:22] Pam: Yes. Absolutely.

[00:33:24] Sarah: You know, it’s like, so if somebody is going to judge you, like you get to just own your new choice and you know, it’s not up to us to explain everything. It’s not up to us to justify all of our decisions and changes.

We get to embody and demonstrate that we’re people who have changed our minds and love our new choices.

Yeah, absolutely. You’re right.

Do we want to shift gears now and talk a bit about how to become better at changing our minds, or how to make changing our minds a little bit easier?

[00:33:57] Pam: Yes, let’s do that.

[00:33:59] Sarah: What do you think?

[00:34:00] Pam: Practicing changing your mind is definitely, at the top of the list. I think also, thinking about all the ways that you have already changed your mind is like giving yourself evidence that I’ve changed and I’m going to change more and just really understanding that everything changes.

And not taking any of your beliefs or your stories about yourself too seriously. I really think that is one of the biggest things is just sort of like at the end of the day, most of this stuff that we hold beliefs about, first of all, it’s more nuanced than we think. And second of all, most of it really doesn’t matter that much. So just having a little bit of perspective.

[00:34:49] Sarah: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking when you were saying that, like bird’s eye view about what’s going on, not to get too much in the weeds about whatever the situation is.

Yeah. Okay. So, um, I love what you, so you said a couple of things. One was practicing changing your mind and then, and then gathering that as evidence.

So I wanted to build on that a little bit because it’s, what you’re talking about is really a game changer, um, when, when it comes to developing a new skill or attribute that we want to work on. So I have actually a suggestion for that. Which is to create a spreadsheet and you can call it changing, for example, changing, changing my mind.

Times when I changed, I was empowered enough to change my mind. I was strong. I was brave enough to change my mind. I was a badass enough to change my mind. I knew myself. I trusted myself enough to change my mind. Come up with a title that feels good. And then you have the date, the situation, how you change your mind and what the impact was.

[00:35:55] Pam: And what I love about this is you’re going back to the confirmation bias that we were talking about earlier.

[00:35:58] Sarah: Yes, yes.

[00:35:59] Pam: You’re creating evidence to support your newfound belief that you can change your mind.

[00:36:04] Sarah: Yes. These are your receipts. And so that is a great way to, to ritualize it or have it be a, you know, a practice. So you don’t have to just remember, cause your brain will be like, that didn’t count. And then come up with all the other times that you didn’t. So you have to be smarter than your brain on that.

[00:36:21] Pam: Along the same lines with that, I always talk about journaling, but looking back through journals and seeing how you’ve changed and what you have changed your mind about is really powerful.

That’s more receipts of, of, yes, I have changed a lot. And because I changed in those ways, I can also change in these new ways.

[00:36:42] Sarah: Yeah. And I think remembering that, cause when I was reflecting on when have I changed my mind and chatting with my husband about it, we were noticing that sometimes something will happen that will make us change our mind quickly.

A world event happens. Something catastrophic happens. In your life or around you and you know immediately, right? COVID happens. Somebody has a health scare. There’s a death in the family. Things change in that instance. And then there’s other times where it’s more Like a bucket of water and then it’s like drop by drop.

It’s more of an incremental kind of change. And then what’s the expression? Yeah. Like the final drop or the straw that breaks the camel’s back. And then that last thing happens. And then you think, you know what, this is not a friendship that I want to hold on to anymore. That was the last drop. So it wasn’t as dramatic and maybe the incident wasn’t even such a big deal, but it’s been this build up and then you think finally this is enough, enough is enough and off I go.

So that’s a different, so in the category of how to, how to make it easier to change our minds, I would say know that there’s different categories. Sometimes we change it quickly. Sometimes it’s more gradual. Sometimes change can take more time and that’s okay. Right. But notice it, notice all those drops, journal on it, create a spreadsheet.

Um, so, so you can notice your thoughts and feelings about it. And then eventually there will be that last drop and you’ll have enough, enough to know that you’re going to make this change.

[00:38:33] Pam: So another way is to seek out information that is contrary to your belief. So we were just talking about confirmation bias and finding evidence to support that you can change. You can go the other direction and look for things that are contrary to your current belief. So, um, just kind of educating yourself essentially, like, you know, If you are holding onto the belief that, um, you know, a certain thing is true, go out there and find out like, well, what are the people who don’t believe that thing is true say?

And really you have to have an open mind. Cause that is. The hardest thing is finding out you might be wrong, right? No one likes being wrong, but embracing that you could be, you know, maybe I have been given incorrect information or maybe I have not been exposed to other viewpoints. So, you know, being able to be willing to be wrong and to be okay with that.

I think it’s one of the most important things in being able to change your mind. And, and that’s really powerful, just in your day to day. This doesn’t have to be about really big things. Like I think about, um, just like in your relationship, right? Or with friends, like sometimes you might say something or you tell them, no, this is, you know, this is the way this has to be.

And then if you guys are disagreeing about something and you’re both really digging in, then you’re not getting anywhere. But if you can be open to like, let me hear your side of this, let me hear why you think differently than I do. And then you can go, okay, like I hear that. I hear your side.

I understand why you think that way. And I might be wrong. That’s so powerful.

[00:40:28] Sarah: Yeah.

And the most productive, um, way that those conversations can go is finding a third way. So you have the first way and then the second way. And if you’re both communicating in the right way and really building on each other and finding what’s true about what the other person has said, and then you can hopefully find if you’ve got one and two, you can find way three, four, five, and six, et cetera.

Like what else? That’s the thing. What else is possible when we let go?

[00:40:54] Pam: Yeah. And not everything is binary. It doesn’t have to be one or zero.

[00:40:58] Sarah: No, most things aren’t.

[00:40:59] Pam: Most things are not.

[00:41:02] Sarah: Yeah, most things aren’t. Yeah. So, so when we release our need to be right, or when we release our need to have made the right choice and had the right idea, never to ever undo that thought, then a lot more becomes possible for us.