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This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

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[00:00:08] Pam: We’ve done a couple of episodes talking about productivity and specifically meaningful productivity in service of spending less time working on, you know, rote tasks or spending time doing just producing. We want to encourage people to become more efficient and more effective so that they have more time to do the things that they really want to do, or to make progress on the bigger things in their life or to spend time with family or whatever that thing is that you really wish you were spending more time doing.

So we wanted to continue that conversation today to kind of check in on how our meaningful productivity journey has gone over the last couple of weeks and some things that have stood out for us in, um, you know, the hobbies that we choose or things that we maybe wish that we could make into hobbies and just haven’t been able to yet. And kind of what the themes are there.

So Sarah, since we last talked about meaningful productivity, how has that shown up in your life?

[00:01:26] Sarah: Well, um, It’s shown up in a significant way, uh, because I have begun pursuing a new hobby, uh, which is one I’ve mentioned off the cuff to you over the months as something that I really wanted to get into, uh, which is gardening.

And for me, gardening is something that, um, I never did. I mean, I’m fortunate enough to have this small backyard, but a little piece of earth and in our backyard, and I would look longingly at the gardens of um, different friends and family and neighbors and think, you know, I wish I could do that, but never did.

And so finally decided that this year I was going to get into it. And the last couple of weeks I have, and that’s taken a lot of intentionality and time. And so for sure, I’ve been more meaningfully, mindfully, productive.

[00:02:29] Pam: What was the hurdle in getting started with that? Was it just waiting for the right time based on the season or was there something that was like holding you back from actually pursuing it?

[00:02:41] Sarah: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this, what exactly it was. I wouldn’t say it was a season. I mean, of course, you know, what you have to wait until spring, but the truth is, um, this idea has been percolating for years and I think I had this, uh, block in my brain that I was just simply not a person who had a green thumb and in fact, I’ve heard jokes of people, you know, I have a black thumb, everything I garden with turns… you know, it ends up dying and I would sort of laugh about that, almost perpetuating that idea and thinking, “Oh, my, my dad has a green thumb”. My late grandmother, she just always her apartment was just filled with plants and she would propagate them. And I thought my Baba has a green thumb and, you know, I just don’t have that.

I’m not a person who does that and, um, coming to terms with that and then saying, well, I can become a person… This is just a skill like everything else. So it was that mindset piece more than anything. So that was one. And then the next was actually the planning, figuring out, well, how do I do this? What are the steps?

I have a lawn. Um, so what are the steps to, to change what exists now to what I want to… um, and that was a whole other set. So as usual, there’s both like the mindset piece and then the actualizing taking action

piece.

[00:04:14] Pam: I love that you started with this story of not having a green thumb because I think that that is something that stops me and probably everyone from even trying things.

You have a story. I’m not a person that works out. I’m not a person that bakes. I can’t do this.

[00:04:34] Sarah: I have that one as well. I’m not a person who bakes.

[00:04:37] Pam: Me too. That’s actually my thing that I just started doing. That’s my hobby. Yeah. Which is also why I just bought a rower.

I’m baking all the, uh, all the cakes and whatnot, so I had to start working out more too. Um, yeah, I had always like, I love cooking. I cook dinner every night. I love doing that, but I feel like cooking is one of those things where it’s a little more like fluid and you add a little bit of this and a little bit of that until it tastes good.

And baking it’s like, if you put in the wrong thing or the wrong amount, it screws up the entire thing. So I always kind of had this thing where it’s like, there’s a couple of things that I can make, but like, I don’t bake. That’s not who I am. And then I started just making easy recipes and I was like, oh, I can bake.

[00:05:23] Sarah: Low and behold.

[00:05:26] Pam: Yeah. Amazing. Right. Um, but we do, we have these stories of who we are. And that can stop us from trying new things because if you have that identity that you are this person or you’re not this person, doing something that is contrary to that is really difficult. You’re, you’re literally changing who you are and what your story is by doing something that goes contrary to who you think you are.

[00:05:57] Sarah: Yeah. And also who we think we are, we’re comparing ourselves to, for example, you might see people on the internet who are baking all of these lavish things where I’m, you know, seeing people who have these beautiful gardens and they know what to do and, and you don’t know that stuff yet. We’re too new and we simply don’t.

So then we think, well, I’m not that person. And, and then it goes back to the growth mindset again, right? Growth mindset, even for a hobby. Because we have to be willing to not know at the beginning and learn the basics, right?

What is the difference between baking soda and baking powder? Can I swap them out? Oh no, I cannot.

You know, or the difference between an annual and a perennial. These things are so basic. Actually, it reminds me. A couple of my girlfriends came over and actually spent the day with me. Digging and planting. And I showed, you know, I was really proud. I said, oh, and I bought this one. It says it’s a proven winner.

I don’t know if you have this brand in California. But she started laughing. She said, you do know that’s the brand name?

Oh, I thought it was a certain kind of gardening award. I didn’t know. The brand name of the plant.

[00:07:19] Pam: That’s great.

[00:07:21] Sarah: Complete beginner shopper, you know, I’m thinking these are the winners. I better buy these ones. Um, so yeah, I think that I’m not a person who, so instead of swapping it to, I’m a, I can become a person who can do these things too.

[00:07:42] Pam: Yeah. Or I can try. I don’t have to be the best. I think that’s another thing that stops a lot of people from trying things, is this idea that if you’re going to do something, you have to do it all out, and that has to become your new thing and you have to spend all this time doing it or become the best at it.

And you really can just dabble. You can play a little bit of a sport. Try pickleball, bake a cake, do, you know, plant one plant. You don’t have to go and do the entire garden. And yeah, but we, we do, we get in this, like, I’m going to do it all and I’m going to be the best at it. And then there’s so much pressure.

And so much time that you invested in, so much that you feel like you have to learn and do, and da da da da da. And then you just go, oh, that’s too much. I give up.

[00:08:37] Sarah: You have to become better at being decent at something. Okay. Mediocre.

[00:08:45] Pam: Yeah.

[00:08:46] Sarah: Or bad at it.

[00:08:48] Pam: Yeah.

And if it’s still fun, who cares? Like, at what point in life do you stop doing things purely because they’re fun?

[00:08:59] Sarah: I don’t know. High school? University? After university? For the most part? Yeah. I don’t know. But this is an interesting topic and many people, um, with whom I work, many of my clients are seeking, uh, additional hobbies.

I want, I want to love doing things and I’ve lost touch with, um, activities that bring me joy just for the sake of, just for the sake of it, I think it’s a real priority.

I think we have a deep longing as adults to have fun, uh, with new activities.

[00:09:39] Pam: Yeah, and often they bring social engagement as well, which is so important and it’s a great way to meet other people. If that’s something that you’re interested in doing.

[00:09:49] Sarah: Well, about the social, I think that’s really true. And I was reflecting on this with my kids recently, um, because I was chatting with my daughter about potentially joining a sports team. And I said, a great way to deepen friendships is when you’re doing activities with the kids over and over again. And I said, that’s why so many people build lasting friendships when they’re in school, because they’re going through the daily grind, all the daily activities with kids over and over again.

Same thing with, you know, friendships and, and other kinds of relationships and how that can become harder when you’re adults.

And then the risk is every time you see someone, you’re just catching up. You’re not actually having that new experience. And so I think if there’s something that you can bond over and do with other adults that you’re interested in being friends with, that’s such a win, right? Yeah. I mentioned this day that to have friends that come over and you’re digging in the earth together and chatting and, um, and, and doing together and experiencing that that’s a kind of bonding that feels really special.

[00:11:04] Pam: Mm hmm.

[00:11:05] Sarah: And nourishing to, to relationships and friendships.

[00:11:08] Pam: Yeah. And it’s, like you said, such a powerful way to build friendships because it’s, it’s forced time together in a way. Like if you meet someone as an adult and you’re like, “Oh, that person was really great. I want to be friends with them”. Then what?

Like you call them and ask them out to lunch and that is so, it feels so awkward and weird.

[00:11:31] Sarah: This is exactly my point. When you’re having lunch and you’re talking and I loved, obviously you and I both love talking, but at a certain point you want to have activities together.

[00:11:41] Pam: So other than the great potential social impact of doing activities with other people, what is the impact on our lives of incorporating hobbies, whether they’re just for fun or whether they are things that we’re really pursuing excellence in?

And then on the flip side, what is the impact of not doing that? You know, if we have a lack of entertainment or a lack of engagement in the world, you know, what, what does that do to us mentally, physically, to our anxiety levels?

[00:12:24] Sarah: Um, so I have three, um, points on about the benefit, the true, true benefit, the need.

It’s deeper than a benefit. I think it’s a real profound human need to pursue things that we’re interested in, right? Um, so this, the first is for self actualization to say, this is me, right? I’m continually evolving as a person, and this is who I’m choosing to be. So in terms of our self concept, remembering that we, we can play a role in that, and that’s deeply fulfilling.

To say, yeah, I’m working within the confines of my life and I’m meeting that, you know, the requirements of my life. And I’ve got a family and I’ve got a job and I’ve got things I’ve got to do. And I’m still doing those things. And at the same time, I still have freedom to, um, decide who I am. And shape who I am.

And I’m not too old to do that.

[00:13:24] Pam: Yeah, that growth and stimulation and just not feeling stagnant is so powerful.

[00:13:33] Sarah: Yeah. And I think it’s really, uh, empowering. Because once we do it for ourselves, even something, you know, small like baking, well, I don’t even want to say small that minimizes it.

Um, but a short term activity like baking scones or whatever it is. And then you, and then you, then that’s proving to yourself that you can take a new activity on and you can develop a new interest. So I think that ability to. To, um, self actualize and, uh, shape our sense of self is so powerful. That’d be my first comment.

Um, the next is around pleasure and joy and prioritizing that and not waiting until everything else in the world is done before we do something for fun. But, but getting into a regular routine, um, of, of creating those moments for ourselves is really important.

[00:14:35] Pam: In our meaningful productivity episode, I mentioned that I’ve been cutting my work days short intentionally so that I can spend the afternoon, you know, reading or baking or doing whatever it is that I want to be doing that is fulfilling in a different way and joyful and for pleasure. And you made the comment that that was a really radical act to cut that time out and to intentionally set aside time for it. So it’s not an afterthought and it’s a total gear shift from produce, produce, produce to like, now I’m going to read a book or, you know, weed the garden or bake something. Like those are all things that are like slow and they take the time that they take and it’s not, it’s not a rapid results kind of activity.

And I hadn’t thought about it being a radical concept to do that, but ever since you said that, that’s kind of been like pinging around in my head, and it is this idea of putting time on the calendar that you block off for things that you just want to do, that you just enjoy. It is a radical act, but I think that it’s important, as you’re saying, that putting joy and pleasure on your priority list is just as important as you know, everything else that’s there to do for producing. We have to build that time in for just things that, that make us feel refreshed and happy and, um, that aren’t just for the purpose of producing.

[00:16:22] Sarah: Yeah, 100%. And I think it’s that we have a flip relationship with this where we often think we’ll have to get all of these things done before I can allow myself to, you know, do the baking or do the gardening or the reading or exercise or whatever it is versus intentionally putting it in the calendar.

So that’s the part that also that I think is so radical about how you’ve restructured your weeks.

Um, so those, those would be the first two with the first two benefits, um, with the self actualization, the integrating pleasure and joy. And then I, the third, which I really see as the by product is, um, the impact of stress reduction and more balance in your life. Because you’re intentionally removing yourself from work, which for most people contributes to stress because it is about that producing and deliverables, whereas if you’re doing something for pleasure, that’s meaningful for you, and it’s not tied to a specific outcome or achievement. Um, you know, this will help your stress level go down.

So you’re intentionally creating time where you’re, um, recalibrating your nervous system, and that will lead to greater balance overall.

[00:17:44] Pam: I think a lot of people have, um like a routine of their day where they are stressed out at work all day and, you know, then maybe family, kids, whatever, like more stress on top of it.

And then you get to the end of the day and they maybe just can’t do anymore. So they throw on TV and just zone out and there’s no outlet. There’s no release of that stress and anxiety. When you do that, when you just sort of zone out for any of your available free time and there’s no processing of any of the stress or any of the anxiety or kind of the time for free thought. Because I think that’s one of the really powerful things for me in hobby or, you know, doing things for pleasure, um, is you know, as I’m cooking or baking or walking or whatever it is that I want to do, your brain is wandering and it’s working out problems and it’s dealing with this, the stuff that happened throughout the day and you can make connections and come to new realizations and just really have that like free thought that you can’t get when you are in that constant anxiety cycle and then zoning out in front of the TV, like you don’t get that.

Like free thought and problem solving and release and all of that. That’s so important for that de-stressing cycle.

[00:19:16] Sarah: I love that. And I’m wondering for you when you’re going on your walks or you’re doing your baking, are you listening to anything or are you, um, just

really…?

[00:19:27] Pam: Yeah, usually, um, I do usually listen to podcasts or, um, talks.

Um, I really enjoy the, um, Waking Up App because they have a lot of conversations with really smart people kind of in the mindfulness and meditation space. So if I want something that is going to maybe trigger my brain to go into that more mindful mode or more kind of, um, free thought mode, I can put on something like that that like they can be talking and your brain will like pick up on a little topic and then kind of flow and you kind of stop listening and you go off in your own little world and you, it can kind of trigger like some really beneficial thought.

Um, but yeah, I am usually listening to something and then, um, I will definitely find that my brain will wander and then I have to come back and rewind the podcast. But yeah, I think not listening is probably a good idea for people who maybe do need a little bit more practice or maybe to consolidate that time so their brain will wander a little more effectively.

[00:20:34] Sarah: I will intentionally take a break from podcasts. Um, or audio books, which I also love,

um, but sometimes I’ll take a break when I’m walking my dog, for example, uh, in service of just giving my brain rest.

[00:20:51] Pam: Yeah.

[00:20:52] Sarah: And again, you know, why is that so radical? Yet it is because we are so accustomed to input. So much input.

So, um, yeah, I think that’s a deeper part of this conversation is around, um, being engaged in these moments of pleasure, meaningful, mindful moments. This is meaningful productivity and it’s not about learning something, cramming my brain with something. It’s just being in the moment and experiencing what it is that I want to experience.

[00:21:31] Pam: Yeah. And knowing that you can pick something up and set it down just because you start a new hobby doesn’t mean that this has to be something that you do constantly every day forever. You can go with your energy, go with how, you know, maybe your energy changes throughout the year. Maybe your time that you have available for these things changes throughout the year.

Maybe what you’re interested in changes throughout the year. And that’s great. Great. Pick something up, set it down, pick something else up. You can be very fluid with this. It doesn’t have to be another thing that is stressful and anxiety inducing and I have to make time for X, Y, and Z. Like, this really needs to be in the service of fun and pleasure and joy and calming.

I have a friend for whom she grew up with a message that, you know, quitting is bad. Uh, and it really was a belief system that served her in some ways, but also tripped her up as an adult, um, because she felt that she was doing something morally wrong by letting certain activities go.

And so I love what you’re bringing to the conversation. Just to say you have permission to do something new, let go of what you’re doing and do something brand new and you can do that anytime and as many times as you want.

You may not remember, but in our coaching sessions, you helped me reframe my feelings about being a quitter.

[00:23:08] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:23:09] Pam: I had a story until I was, I don’t know, 40, when we started working together that I was a quitter. Because I had quit basketball and volleyball and softball and violin and drums. And, you know, I had this whole list. I could tell you everything that I quit. And so I was telling you about this, that, that I felt like I had this quitter, you know, thing.

And you were like, yeah. Like, first of all, like, let’s look at all the things that you haven’t quit for, like, evidence of the contrary. Like, you’ve done a lot of things, you’ve committed to a lot of things, but then, like, maybe you just weren’t enjoying them. Then that’s okay. Like, you don’t have to continue doing things if you’re not enjoying them.

And I was like, oh yeah, I was choosing to stop. I wasn’t quitting. Like, there’s a difference.

[00:24:00] Sarah: You were meaningfully, mindfully quitting.

[00:24:04] Pam: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so that’s another thing that you can try things and, um, even if it doesn’t become your thing or you’re not good at it or you don’t want to continue, one of the, the huge things that comes out of having greater experiences is learning to do a new activity or experimenting with a new activity benefits every other area of your life.

Creating new connections in your brain, um, you know, having something new to talk about with your friends, um, building a new, uh, skill, like whatever it is. Anytime you try something new, learn something new, there are benefits outside of that box to everything else that you do in your life.

[00:24:57] Sarah: So yes, speak a little bit more about that, because one thing that you inspire me with is your, uh, willingness to try new things.

In my time, knowing you, you’ve pursued various different projects and interests. Everything from different podcasts to, um, learning Tarot to, um, piano lessons. Now I’m hearing about baking.

You’ll really say, this is interesting. I’ll try this.

[00:25:31] Pam: So what’s really funny is here, so I’m hearing your story about me, which is that I’m willing to try lots of new things. And my story about the exact same situation is that I’ve quit 90% of those things. So that is so interesting that, um, you know, just the perspective and the stories that we have.

But, um, yeah, I think that my perspective on trying things has definitely changed a lot over the years because of changing that story about being a quitter. But I also just like the question, I just like asking, “can I do this”? And finding out. You know, um, it’s, it’s really a powerful question instead of thinking about something and going, I can’t like immediately going, I can’t. Just “can I”?

And what does that look like? And what’s the, what’s the easiest, lowest uh, effort way that I can try this thing out?

So, you know, with this show, for example, we could do a lot more editing and prep and marketing and graphics. Right?

There’s, there’s a whole world of things that we could do, but we want to start with minimum viable product. What’s the least effort that we can put in to get out something that we’re happy with to start and then grow and improve from there. And I think that that mindset is something that you can take to trying anything.

But with the, that story of, of me thinking that I would quit her and you seeing that I. I’ve tried a lot of things. I think one of the things that stops people from trying new things is what’s everyone else going to think when I start this and I quit. You know, if I, if I tell people I’m going to write a book and then I don’t write a book or I tell people I’m going to start you know, training to run a marathon or whatever it is. And then I don’t what are they going to think of me?

[00:27:46] Sarah: What happened to you when you put down some of these new interests that you, that you tried, these hobbies that you maybe tried and then decided to put down. Um, if you had the fear before well, what will happen to me if I put it down? Like what will people say? Like, did people say things? Did, did you know what happened?

[00:28:07] Pam: Yeah, that’s, so that’s it. No one cares.

[00:28:09] Sarah: No one cares.

[00:28:10] Pam: No one cares. I mean, there are things like with my other podcast, Not Bad Advice, I do actually have a couple of, you know, core listeners that every once in a while they’ll ask like, “are there going to be new episodes”? But now I can tell them to watch A Little Bit Easier.

[00:28:24] Sarah: There in a supportive way. They don’t care in a way that they’re judging you or think something’s wrong with you.

[00:28:30] Pam: Yeah, exactly. And that’s the, you know, the whole thing that we all think that we’re at the center of the universe and everyone’s thinking about us constantly. No one is. Everyone’s got their own stuff going on.

And everyone does this. Everyone picks up new things and quits. Because life’s hard, we don’t have a lot of time, it is difficult to pick up something new as an adult.

But if there is something that you want to add into your life, the way to do it is that it has to to be a habit. It has to be intentional. And that’s a piece that I think is missing a lot with hobbies because we’re like, I’m going to do it when I have time or it’s sporadic.

And as much as we’re talking here about things like being low stress and like, don’t put too much emphasis on it. Don’t make it another thing that stresses you out. It is something that you have to put intentionality behind and you have to make it easy to incorporate. Or if you have to think about it, you’re just not going to.

So, we’ve talked a lot about how much in life is habit, and in order to make a hobby something that you do and that you make time for, you have to make that a habit too. You have to make the process of setting aside specific time intentional. You have to reduce the barriers to starting it, maybe find other people that are going to do it with you.

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