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In this episode Pam & Sarah discuss:

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The article in The Atlantic that we reference is The Puzzling Gap Between How Old You Are and how Old You Think You Are.

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This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

[00:00:00] Pam: There’s so much of, I should have done X by now or I haven’t accomplished what I wanted to, or whether it’s haven’t gotten married or had kids or whatever those things are that you feel like I have to have done this by this point, or I’m not at the level that I expected, that I wanted to be, or I haven’t achieved this goal.

And so we hit this age and it’s oh, I haven’t done the thing. So…

[00:00:27] Sarah: Yeah. And door closed. Door closed. Door closed. That’s what we envision.

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[00:00:30] Pam: So we decided to talk about what we’re gonna discuss today because of an article that came out in The Atlantic that was titled The Puzzling Gap Between How Old You Are and How Old you Think You Are. We had both read it independently and you brought it up while we were recording another episode and I said, oh, I found it fascinating as well.

So we decided to discuss Subjective Age.

[00:01:03] Sarah: Yes. And I was. So glad that you wanted to dive into this with me. Cause I’ll be honest, I hadn’t even heard the expression subjective age before as a term. And so I was familiar with, some of the concepts, but I hadn’t really thought about it cohesively.

So I thought this would be a fun chance to really dive in and explore together.

[00:01:28] Pam: Yeah, it’s a really interesting topic because we frequently hear about people feeling older than they are. It’s kind of a joke that, you get up in the morning and you got aches and pains and you’re like, oh, I feel I like I got hit by a bus. I feel much older than I am. But the interesting part of the article was that most people over 40 actually feel 20% younger than their biological age. So it’s actually a much different discussion than feeling older than you really are.

[00:01:58] Sarah: Yeah. Or if it’s like both, because if people subjectively think they’re younger, but then they have an ache and pain that they associate with an older age, which is actually their biological age.

So maybe they’re just feeling themselves. Because I’m 44, so according to the study, if I were had the norm I would think in my brain that I’m 35. So then if I, looked in the mirror and saw like the skin of a 44 year old, or had the energy of a 44 year old, or that sort of recovery time after I hurt myself, it takes longer, right?

I might think, oh my gosh, I feel so much older than I am, but actually that’s just my actual age.

[00:02:43] Pam: And what do you think about that? Is 35 the age that you subjectively feel, are you anchored there?

[00:02:51] Sarah: I thought a lot about it over the last couple of weeks since I read this and when I knew we’d be chatting. I oscillate between 36 44.

Between is kind of a blur. I would say 36 does resonate for me as an age because that was when I had my second kid which was pivotal moment, right? It’s like a moment that’s enshrined in my brain and my psyche. And 36 I felt very settled in my adulthood. I had a good sense of who I was.

I loved my twenties. The beginning, my early thirties felt a little bit, I was more unsure with coming of age, becoming a mother, that new chapter. But by 36 I felt grounded in that. So to me, 36 makes sense.

And then other times I do feel, yeah, I’m in my forties now because there are certain experiences and wisdom and just life, that, that’s changed who I was since 35. So I would say part of me, definitely, I can relate to that. Like in one moment I might say to you, oh yeah, I’m 35, 36. And then in another conversation I might tell you, no, I’m 44.

What about you?

[00:04:06] Pam: I think that my story’s a little bit different in that my twenties, I didn’t love. I wasn’t really who I am, I was I was drinking a lot and I didn’t have a lot of self-confidence and I really behaved in ways that, looking back I’m not super excited about.

So I don’t have any longing for twenties or anchor to my twenties. And then my thirties were really a lot of personal growth and career change and relationship growth and all of those things. So I don’t have a prior age where I really felt settled and happy. There’s like an anchor there to an age when you were really starting to feel settled and happy and confident in who you are.

And I don’t think that I really had that until I was in my early forties. So maybe physically I still feel like I’m in my thirties. Like I, I feel younger than I am physically, but mentally don’t necessarily associate with another age. I kind of think about yeah, I’m 43 and that’s where I am, and I’m like in a good place at 43.

But I get that feeling of it being kind of a range. It’s almost like from 35 to 45, like that’s just a big chunk. Like, like I don’t, I, I can’t tell you like, what was 38? I don’t even know.

[00:05:30] Sarah: Yeah. And the other thing I’ve noticed is that time seems to go really quickly.

[00:05:36] Pam: It does, yes.

[00:05:37] Sarah: Yeah. In contrast to my kids, for example, if something is two weeks away, they’ll think that’s this monumental amount of time. I’m like, it’s nothing. Or six months or, whatever. Every day, every week for them is a long time, a long duration. And I, I remember feeling that way compared to now I’m like, Oh, such a, something to look forward to that’s happening in eight months, and it, because I know it’s going to be here within the blink of an eye.

So I think in that sense the years can pass quickly. Right? And disproportionately. That makes sense to me. So it’s like disproportionately it feels like they’re happening faster than they are.

[00:06:19] Pam: And age is such an abstract thing, like we have this chronological age and everyone has a birthday every year, but one year for you is completely different than a year for me. And a year for my mom who’s in her seventies is completely different than a year for my nephews. And so I polled a couple of people to see what their subjective age was, to get an idea of different perspectives.

And first I asked my partner, CK, who is the same age as I am, we’re three months apart, so he’s also 43. And his answer kind of surprised me. I asked, what’s your subjective age? And he thought about it for a minute and he goes, 18 . And I’m like, why? How are you stuck at 18? Like, why do you think you’re 18?

But he had two severe concussions within a couple of days of each other, and that ended up causing some brain trauma, which resulted in him going through about a 20 year battle with anxiety and depression and insomnia.

[00:07:25] Sarah: I didn’t realize that was caused by…

[00:07:28] Pam: Mmhmm. Yeah. Soccer injuries. Yep.

[00:07:31] Sarah: Wow. Okay.

[00:07:32] Pam: Yeah. So he thinks that he kind of got anchored to that point in his life where he changed. And he didn’t really feel like himself after he had those concussions. And he didn’t have an answer for why until about five or six years ago. But that big chunk of his life, he was living and he was happy and he was fine, but he had become disconnected from who he really felt like he was.

Now he’s starting to get back to who he was. But he kind of feels like he’s still at 18 as he’s kind of getting back and dealing with all of the stuff that he went through with the brain injuries.

And then I polled my mom, who is in her mid seventies, and she immediately said mid fifties. And I said, why do you feel that way? What was going on at that time? And she said that physically she does not feel like she’s in her seventies. She’s in really good shape and mentally she’s, really sharp. And she still works three jobs and she’s very active, and she says that she doesn’t really feel like anything significant has changed for her in the last 20 years, so she doesn’t feel like she’s aged.

She’s I got to that point and still there.

[00:08:49] Sarah: So interesting. Yeah. I think that there can be and the article suggested this as well, that we might associate with a certain age because of something significant that happened in our lives at that time. Whether it be traumatic, for some, it was some traumatic, or it might have been something that felt really positively meaningful that brings like a strong association with that age.

It’s interesting cuz I polled some folks as well and there was a lot of what came up was. I feel I know my age, like I, I own my age, like I own the number.

And at the same time a huge commitment to like living life to the fullest and having a lot of experiences. So in that sense, like an association with feeling younger. But it does bring up a really interesting sort of set of questions, I think for people to think about. It can be like a triggering question. Cuz I think the concept of aging brings with it so many things.

[00:09:56] Pam: There’s a lot of judgment and baggage around age. kind of regardless of what age you are, it’s almost like you’re not allowed to be that age.

[00:10:05] Sarah: I know. It’s crazy. I remember always thinking that I looked really young and that I sound young, and I wanted to look older. Cause I thought people…

[00:10:15] Pam: Really?

[00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. When I was in like my twenties and thirties, I, cause I thought people would take me more seriously . And then as soon as I became in my forties, I’m like, oh no, I wanna look younger. What? I mean, yeah, there’s something around like this concept of hiding our ages.

And this was a conversation that I had with another friend of mine who’s soon gonna be turning 50. And they shared that they had some angst around that. This turning 50 and we joked about, oh, will you hide this? Will you be honest about your age or for the first time will you start lying about your age?

And this is also a very sort of self-aware, confident person. And yet there’s this thing around aging with a desire to keep it, kind of keep it concealed. But it, you, it is who you are. It’s like there is, it’s just the fact of who you are. So to me, that really just highlights yeah, the, all of the kind of ageism that there is and all of the thoughts and stories and narratives that we carry around aging.

[00:11:27] Pam: So you mentioned your friend who’s turning 50 and is having some angst about it. So I’m wondering about the reactions that people have at various stages in their lives. There’s so much of, I should have done X by now or I haven’t accomplished what I wanted to, or whether it’s haven’t gotten married or had kids or whatever those things are that you feel like I have to have done this by this point, or I’m not at the level that I expected, that I wanted to be, or I haven’t achieved this goal.

And so we hit this age and it’s oh, I haven’t done the thing. So…

[00:12:06] Sarah: Yeah. And door closed. Door closed. Door closed. That’s what we envision. For many of us that all the doors were open, all the options were there. And then as you become chronologically older, you think there’s just fewer doors available for me.

And I think some of that is true.

[00:12:21] Pam: Sure.

[00:12:22] Sarah: And I think some of it is not true. I think some of it is like a belief system that can be challenged. Because it’s no, I still feel like there’s options in front of me and I still feel like I’m creating a life of meaning and I’m open to surprises and I’m trying new things or… yeah, living a life that feels meaningful, exciting.

[00:12:44] Pam: Yeah. Rather than looking backwards at what has happened you can look forward at what can still happen. And, if you’re 40, 45, you have a lot of life left to live. And you hear about like musicians and actors and, artists and all of these people that their most popular works are frequently created in the second half of their lives. They could have had success before, but all of that experience and knowledge and just life. Everything that you have gone through sets you up for doing really great things and we think about oh, you gotta accomplish all this stuff in your thirties or whatever.

But I think if you can have kind of that growth mindset and constantly be learning and challenging yourself and whether that’s just reading a book or listening to a podcast, we know whatever it is that is keeping you engaged and thinking rather than just kind of being like, oh, this is what it is.

[00:13:46] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. And so say more, cuz you had mentioned this earlier, like the relationship with growth mindset and subjective age. What were you noticing around that?

[00:13:58] Pam: Well, I think that a lot of people that I have talked to where they say that they feel old or maybe even if you think about people once they retire, there’s a lot of data that shows that they start aging more quickly.

Or feeling older once they’ve retired. And that’s something that people look forward to their whole lives. They’re like, I’m gonna retire and I’m gonna have this amazing life. And then they retire and it’s like a sort of a downturn and I think all of that really comes down to… purpose could be one thing, but you don’t necessarily have to have some grand purpose to be learning and engaging with new content, new ideas, just really expanding your horizons.

[00:14:44] Sarah: And new experiences.

[00:14:46] Pam: New experiences. Yeah.

[00:14:49] Sarah: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s key.

One big group of people who I polled are part of a leadership development group that I’ve done. So the individuals in the group tend to be really thirsty for new experiences, feeling creative about their lives. So all different ages, and I think that they’re individuals that have decided that they want to have purpose in their lives and create a life of meaning and purpose and go after that. So I think that was telling for me when they said, no, I feel good about my age. I can’t, my recovery time is slower.

I went skateboarding and hurt my ankle and it took me longer to feel better and more aches and pains and I’ve had to change the exercises. I do. I can’t do this, but I can do that instead. But there were more analogies like, oh I’m aging like a fine wine and, older and wiser and have more to bring to the table for myself and for others.

So I find that inspir, I find aging, I have mixed feelings about it, and at the same time, when I can step into that energy, it feels a lot better.

[00:15:59] Pam: It definitely does. Yeah.

I have a very… obviously everyone does have a complex relationship with aging. I think that I definitely have a lot of vanity around it.

I color my hair. I’ve been going gray since I was 25. It’s a family trait. So I’m fighting that. And I definitely do a lot to appear younger, keeping appearance looking younger, but also staying fit, eating in a way that is anti-aging. But at the same time, we wanna make sure that talking here about first of all, aging is not a negative, and there’s no right answer for what subjective age you should feel. If you feel 20 years younger, great. If you feel your age, great. Like the, there’s no right or wrong here.

[00:16:47] Sarah: I agree.

[00:16:48] Pam: It’s really about feeling good.

[00:16:49] Sarah: Yes. I think that’s what that was gonna be the “and. That I agree, and I think the right age is one that makes you feel excited about being you, that makes you feel empowered and alive.

So if it’s a younger age, I think if your subjective age is significantly younger than your real age on your birth certificate. I think there’s also, value in working to accept this age because it’s… your body is changing and has different needs, right?

So we can tap into that. Wow. That spirit of feeling more youthful, feeling more energized, feeling excited about life or all of those things from previous ages, if that works for us. And we wanna identify with that. And at the same time, I think it’s like a polarity of also saying, yeah, at the same time, this is where my body’s at.

So saying to me somehow this, oh, age is just a number. You’re only as old as you feel, it’s kind of like a cop out. Yes, our mindset is hugely important and let’s not let the narratives that society says about when you’re this age, you have to do this, and when you’re this age, you have to do that, and you have to stop doing this.

Let’s, challenge those. And at the same time saying that it’s, it’s all in your mind you’re only as old as you feel. There’s something about cop out of it too, where it’s our bodies are evolving, and how can we work to honor that, celebrate that care for that, and at the same time, not fall victim of socialization that tells us we have to do X, Y, and Z by certain ages.

That was my sort of most meaningful thought around this.

[00:18:28] Pam: The interesting thing in these articles that we read about subjective aging was that in brain scans that they have done, that they have shown that people who feel younger than they are actually have differences in their brain makeup. I think it was in the, I don’t know, dura matter or something. I’m not I don’t remember exactly what it was, but they were able to show actual differences. So these people who had a younger subjective age also had better memory, better cognition, more resilience. They had more optimism.

[00:19:03] Sarah: Yeah. And that one study said, oh, as soon as they identified with a younger age, they instantly felt more capable.

[00:19:11] Pam: We have to ask, is it feeling younger that changes your brain, or is it having a different brain makeup that changes how you feel?

I don’t know that we can separate those two, but we know that the way you think and behave and the way you treat your body, the way you think about your abilities does impact your physical health. You can think yourself into not feeling well. So kind of regardless of whether changes happen because of how you feel or whether the way you feel changes your brain, I think that focusing on having that zest for life that they talked about in the article and having optimism and looking ahead and thinking positively about what you can do. And not focusing on anti-aging because aging is bad, but focusing on feeling alive and feeling present and feeling like you’re actively participating in your life now, rather than constantly living in oh I wish it was still, 2001 or whatever year you’re in.

[00:20:22] Sarah: I love everything that you’re saying in this idea of active participation. And feeling alive, right? Feeling that there’s stuff happening. Life is still happening. With you, for you, with your participation. And it reminds me of this one point… this concept of the reminiscence bump.

Yeah. So the reminiscence bump is this tendency we have to remember disproportionately certain memories and instances from our youth, specifically ages 15 to 25, because for most people, those are ages at which so many firsts happened. First experiences, pivotal moments, different types of, relationships, possibly leaving home, like all these big moments that are so ingrained in our brains.

Our brain stores those memories disproportionately. We remember those youthful memories so much, and then we might have a tendency to really feel nostalgic about that.

When I was reading that, I was thinking, yes, great and that’s why I love creating lots of memorable new things in my life right now, in my forties. I like having aha moments. I like doing new things. I am constantly wanting to travel to new places, read new things, have new kinds of conversations, try stuff out, grow in my career. Because I know that those kinds of new experiences feel really satisfying for me and really exciting.

[00:21:49] Pam: Yeah, I think that definitely ties in with what we were talking about. Just always learning and staying in that growth mindset or focusing broadening your horizons and not feeling stuck. Even if it’s a little thing. Even if you’re like, hey, I’m gonna, read a new novel or learn about a new topic.

Whatever it is, it can be something so little and you never know where that first new thing is going to take you. You could read a novel where they talk about making a recipe and then you go and you learn to make that recipe, and then before you know it, you’re having friends over for dinner to try something new.

You can just kind of take little things in your day-to-day and make those new and novel experiences where you’re learning new things.

[00:22:33] Sarah: Yeah, I think about this show – A Little Bit Easier – that I never would’ve thought or dared have a YouTube channel in my thirties. It just wouldn’t have crossed my mind to something that I would do, right?

And then here I am working with you to bring this to life. And yes, this is something that people in their twenties, or even in their teens are doing, but who cares? Good for us too, right? Yes, there are some rules for some things, but for other things there really aren’t.

So in terms of learning new topics, trying new things expanding your interests full permission at different ages to do that.

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