In this conversation, Pam and Sarah delve into the multifaceted concept of visibility, exploring its significance in both personal and professional contexts. They discuss the challenges individuals face in becoming visible, particularly the fears associated with judgment and safety. The conversation emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy, the benefits of visibility, and practical strategies for building confidence and finding one’s voice. Through personal anecdotes and insights, they encourage listeners to embrace their visibility journey and recognize the value they bring to the table.

Takeaways

• Visibility means being seen and heard for your contributions.
• Everyone has unique challenges regarding visibility.
• Fear of judgment can hold people back from being visible.
• Taking small steps can help overcome fear.
• Visibility can lead to more opportunities and growth.
• You can define your own path to visibility.
• Mentorship can enhance visibility for both parties.
• Confidence builds through practice and experience.
• Your voice matters, even if you don’t feel like an expert.
• Visibility is a journey, not a destination.

Links, Corrections, and Whatnot

Pam launched the menu plan newsletter she mentions in this episode. You can subscribe for free here: https://makingiteasy.substack.com/

Hire Sarah here: https://www.sarahlang.ca/

Visible Women Conference: https://visiblewomenconference.com/

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Transcript

This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

Pam (00:00)
Sarah, you recently spoke at, I gave a workshop at a conference in Montreal called the Visible Women’s Conference. And so we thought that we would do an episode on this topic of visibility, what that even means, what it looks like for different people, our experiences with being visible or not.

Sarah (00:08)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (00:21)
and some challenges that people may come across as they are trying to become more visible in certain areas of their lives and maybe tips for people who are looking to gain a greater presence maybe in their career or even hobbies or personal lives.

Sarah (00:38)
Okay, yeah, I love it. I love that you opened it up to all aspects of life So the conference was a couple of weeks ago, and it was a two-day conference and a colleague slash friend of mine called Bibigi Haile ran this conference and it was just a really wonderful experience It was two days of there were keynote presentations there were

Pam (00:45)
you

Sarah (01:07)
TED style talks. There were a number of different workshops and I delivered one of the workshops. So all of the talks were just super inspiring, super enlightening, really honest. There was a lot of warmth in the room, a lot of encouragement and just a lot of honesty about people’s experiences. So I loved it. I loved the whole environment.

My workshop was called Confident Communication and it was specifically around public speaking and providing some tips and strategies around public speaking and growing their confidence, which just flowed really well with the workshop because so much of the content was around the benefits of speaking up, the benefits of having our voices heard in the workplace.

the benefits of voicing our ideas, sharing our expertise, not waiting for it to be noticed. So the benefits of it. And then of course, there were some conversations as well on the challenges, particularly many women, many individuals from different groups that might be underserved.

might have more challenges when it comes to being given a platform to speak and then taking up that space even if if and when the platform is granted to them. So those are some of the topics that we covered. So I’m sure you can imagine it was pretty rich.

Pam (02:44)
Yeah, I can’t imagine. And I’m glad that you brought up the intersectional considerations because the conference was for women. But we do want to consider that everyone has things to consider about their visibility in their place of employment or whatever the situation is that we’re talking about.

Sarah (02:50)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (03:10)
know, historically there are a lot of issues for women being visible, especially in the workplace. If we’re talking about someone who’s a woman and also another minority or, you know, a trans woman or someone with a disability, they may be like ironically more visible in certain ways, but then also have challenges with visibility. It’s like they are like more noticed while also being ignored.

So there’s a lot of challenges that come up there. But this also is a conversation that can impact anyone, even if you are male or don’t identify as a woman. Everyone has issues in their various spaces of like, you know, what is my role here? How can I be visible? How can I use my voice? And what considerations do I need to think about? And, you know, different tools, what different tools are available to me to.

you know, take up that space.

Sarah (04:12)
You are absolutely right. So let’s get started.

Pam (04:16)
Okay, great. So, like, can we talk about what is visibility even? Like, can we maybe kind of define it a little bit or talk about what it means to us and what it may mean for our listeners?

Sarah (04:31)
Indeed. Okay, so when I brought the topic up as a potential topic for you and I to talk about on the podcast, I was thinking about the word visibility primarily in a professional context. And by that it’s being seen and also being heard for our professional contributions.

So that’s what I’m talking about. How often are we seen and how often are we heard for what we want to be seen and heard for?

Pam (05:04)
Right, that’s the key. Yeah. I have definitely had experiences with jobs where I would say that I was visible, like I was a boss, right? I had tons of employees, I was interfacing with the C-suite. I was visible in that sense, but my contributions maybe were ignored or my ideas were taken.

by someone else. So I didn’t get credit for the work that I was doing. So visibility in that sense of like, you know, being seen for your contributions, for what you want to be valued for, and for what you’re bringing to the table, not just being seen because you’re there, right? Like actually being valued for your contributions, I think is really the key.

Sarah (05:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (05:55)
And that can, that absolutely does happen in the workplace, but I think it also carries over into your personal life, into maybe situations if you’re volunteering somewhere, you’re on a committee, like all of these things that we’re gonna talk about, you can bring into every aspect of your life to be more confident, to speak up, to take up space and to be valued for what you’re bringing to the table.

Sarah (06:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I really like that you brought the word valued because I think that’s really key. Not only are you seen and heard for your ideas, but they’re being valued, not necessarily that they’re always being accepted, but that they’re being considered. Great.

Pam (06:38)
So how has this topic of visibility played a role in your career or your life?

Sarah (06:46)
I mean, it’s played a huge role. As we’ve talked about many times, I became a full-time entrepreneur about six years ago. And that was a bit of a rude awakening to the fact that I now had to figure out how I was going to be visible on my own. And that’s because prior to that, I had always worked for

an organization that I felt proud of and that I felt aligned to or aligned with so that organization would have visibility and then I could associate myself with that and then identify with that and that took some of the heat off for me. So in terms of public visibility, I mean, I’ve never been particularly active on social media other than the fact that I do leverage LinkedIn and spend time on LinkedIn.

But if I wanted to post anything about my work on LinkedIn, my professional identity was because I worked in the nonprofit sector for the last decade, really, almost decade before I started my own business. And because that felt right for me, it felt very values aligned and I’m sure lots of people work for organizations they’re proud of. You can just say, this organization’s doing this work and then

you can kind of get some visibility from that or I could, shouldn’t speak for others. I would get some visibility from that and then feel positive. And then suddenly I’m okay. I’m working for my own, for myself. I’m on my own. Well, what does visibility look like? Because I need that to get clients. And so that really was like jumping into a freezing cold lake, you know, like, my gosh, like I don’t know how to do this. And then there are

Pam (08:37)
you

Sarah (08:41)
many different models of that, of how self-employed people, how coaches become visible. And I looked around and to be totally honest with you, didn’t, a lot of what I saw didn’t resonate for me. And so that felt really confusing, because not only did I need to figure out the strategy, that I needed to figure out what felt right for me in terms of how I wanted to be visible, how I wanted to show up.

Pam (09:09)
I think that’s such an interesting topic because I’ve definitely dealt with that as well. But I think a lot of people do when they maybe try to launch a career or need to do branding or something like that. You look at other people in the space and you go, okay, I have to be like that. And it…

Sarah (09:26)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (09:28)
feels fake and it feels icky and you’re like forcing yourself to do things that other people do. It doesn’t even have to be something online either. It could be like in your, in your workplace, you’re like, well this person is successful here. So I have to be like them. And you start being untrue to yourself to, you know, emulate what someone else is doing because you think that they’re being successful because of the way they behave or what have you. And really at the core of this is how, how do you get visible?

Sarah (09:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Pam (09:58)
as yourself? Like how do you stay true to yourself while you’re gaining the visibility that you want?

Sarah (09:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it’s so true what you’re saying. And I’m also reminded of the fact that many of us spend time on social media and then your algorithm is going to feed you probably people who are in your industry. So you’re seeing a lot of that content and then that’s just a ton of input.

Right? it’s like input, input. This is how it’s done. So even if you’re consciously saying, okay, I need to find my own way, when you’re hearing all these voices, it’s competing and it’s almost like that narrative can feel like, that’s the truth and that’s how it’s done. And then it can be hard to hear your own voice if you’re not intentionally shutting that out and spending time connecting with, okay, what?

What feels right for me in terms of visibility? What is the message I want to put out there? What are the tools I want to use that feel good to me, that feel safe to me, that feel authentic to me, that feel exciting, that feel that they’re going to give me the returns that I want? And then maybe what’s the help I need? Maybe I want some coaching on it. Maybe I want some support. Maybe I need some extra time in my schedule to work on it. Maybe I want a friend to work with so I don’t have to do it alone.

But all of that is like internal work. And so if we’re just getting all this external, well, this is how this person is visible. We’re, we’re taking that in and then it can become pressure. And it’s like, no, I don’t have to do it this way. There’s a million different ways to be visible. And I need to figure out what’s going to feel right for me.

Pam (11:43)
Yeah, I’m kind of struggling with this right now myself. I’ve never had to work for, you know, really building my business. It kind of happened organically and I had, you know, visibility because of a previous job that I had where I got to go to a lot of conferences and meet a lot of people in my industry and it just sort of grew from there. And I was lucky to be able to build a business out of that reputation that I had from my

Sarah (11:48)
Hmm.

Pam (12:13)
previous job and all the networking that I did there. But right now I’m considering launching a Substack where I would be publishing my weekly dinner menus because I’ve talked to so many people who are like, I can’t do that. I don’t have the time. I don’t have the interest. I don’t have the energy, but I want to not have to think about what to have for dinner every night.

Sarah (12:21)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (12:38)
I’m toying around with this idea. So I’m digging into the Substack universe and it’s this whole other world where you have to like hustle and create all this content and brand yourself and like figure out what your voice is. And you’re seeing what’s working for all these other people. And I’m like, like, I don’t know if I want to do it the way these people are doing it. And like, what is my voice? And, you know, it’s, it’s definitely an eye-opening thing to have to go through that exercise of

Sarah (12:52)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (13:08)
do I want to be seen? What is my voice? What are the ways that I’m going to differentiate myself from everyone else? And again, it’s not just an online thing. This is something that I think we all kind of at some point when we want to make a move into a different career or a higher position in a company or anything like that, we have to go through this exercise of like, really, who am I? And how do I want to be seen? Like, what is my brand?

Sarah (13:16)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (13:38)
and what do I want to be valued for? Because if you don’t kind of do that work, you can end up in a situation where all of a sudden one day you like wake up and you go, I don’t even like my job. I don’t like who I am. I don’t like this situation that I’ve gotten myself into.

Sarah (13:38)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it’s like the whole point of, example, you if you decide to pursue this Substack is because you want to do it. And because it’s going to be a new expression of something within you that you want to share that wants to come out. So and I know because I’ve subscribed to a couple people Substack’s about meal planning. Once you get one, then they’re saying, do you want to subscribe to these other three?

Pam (13:59)
Yeah.

Sarah (14:15)
since you like this, you might like these other ones. And then suddenly that becomes a lot of information about this one topic. So it’s kind of similar to what I was saying before, that you can almost feel so influenced by these, all of these ideas. So on the one hand, I think market research is great. And then on the other hand, if it’s about your own visibility journey, taking a pause and really checking in with, okay, well, what would my voice look like right now? And what would feel good for me?

Pam (14:49)
Okay, so let’s talk about some benefits and challenges of building your visibility in an organization or situation, like wherever it is that you’re working on this visibility.

Sarah (15:02)
Okay, so I’ve got a couple of comments here. The first, I think there’s a lot of fear. And I talk to a lot of clients and students about this. And whether they are entrepreneurs, self-employed, or they’re working in an organization, there’s a common thread and it’s fear. So some of the key fears are fear of being judged by our peers, fear of taking up too much space.

and then inadvertently making other people feel bad or making it seem like we don’t care about other people that we’re being too selfish. And then I think underlying that though is really a fear of not being safe.

You know, is it safe for me to share my ideas? Right now, you know, we see people being sort of attacked online, there’s trolls, people can be canceled. this is, you know, and again, when we’re talking about the particular journey for women to be visible, or individuals with other individuals from other minority groups, or when we’re at, you know, for those who are at the intersection of different

identities, marginalized identities, that fear can become bigger and bigger and more and more real and valid.

Pam (16:31)
Yeah, the fear piece is big because I think there is definitely a fear of, you know, once I’m seen, then everything that I do is under a spotlight. If I make a mistake, it’s a bigger deal than if I made a mistake when I was not under the spotlight. If I say, you know,

Sarah (16:45)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (16:55)
say something weird in a meeting when I’m the manager, that’s a bigger deal than if I’m just the employee or whatever. So that fear piece is huge. And I can really feel that as someone thinking about the posting on the internet or social media kind of stuff. There is this…

Sarah (17:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pam (17:22)
backlash, especially for women, we get attacked online for appearance for, you know, being pushy, being bitchy, being, you know, like, pick your pejorative. The internet is a not very friendly space for women and minorities, particularly. So that fear of standing up and speaking out can hold you back from achieving the level

that you want to achieve. And it’s like, is it, you have to do that like math calculation of like, is it worth it for me to get this thing that I want when I know that I’m also going to have to be on the defensive.

Sarah (17:51)
Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So then let’s jump into, is it worth it? Yeah.

Pam (18:07)
Yeah, It has to be, right? If we let fear hold us back, we’ll never do anything. I think you can make calculated risks. And I think that so there are organizations, there are spaces that are just not going to be good environments for certain people to be visible.

Sarah (18:11)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (18:35)
I think that is a consideration that we have to say.

Sarah (18:38)
I like yeah, I like what you’re saying that it’s not like a carte blanche like always be visible in every way you get to make smart choices informed decisions about what’s going to give you the return you want and what’s going to feel you know, safest for you.

Pam (18:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, if you are at a company where you want to reach a certain level, but doing that would be really uncomfortable for you for whatever reason. the, you know, the people that you would be working with are not healthy people, if it just wouldn’t be worth it, you have to make that decision of like, do I try and be visible here? Or do I find an organization where I can still achieve my goals, but it’s not here?

Like that’s okay, that’s not quitting. That’s making the choice to put yourself in a better situation for you to achieve your goals.

Sarah (19:37)
So then when we find a space or an avenue where we want to be more visible, what do you think are the potential rewards? Like you said, it has to be worth it. So why is it worth it for you?

Pam (19:57)
I think if you have a goal, if you’ve got something that you really want to achieve, letting fear stop you from achieving that will only result in regret. In 10 years, if you’re looking back and you’re like, I really wish that I had taken that chance. The fear is not permanent. It’s not something that is going to

continue to hold you back, I don’t think. Like if you get a little bit of experience, you take some baby steps, you know, do whatever you need to do to kind of get the ball rolling and you get that experience, the fear will dissipate. You’ll get better, you will gain confidence, you will become stronger in whatever this whatever you’re working on. So the fear is transient.

unless you are actually in a situation where you are in danger. But if it’s just the kind of fear of being seen and fear of making a mistake or those kinds of things, that’s transient. So understanding that and knowing that on the other side, it’s so much better. It’s worth it for you to achieve that goal and to not have that regret of letting something transient hold you back.

Sarah (20:59)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Okay, so I’m hearing one of the benefits is, I guess like working with your fear in real time to not let it stop you, right? It’s growth, it’s growth, it’s self confidence. I also think when you were describing it, I was thinking part of that growth is you figuring things out on the fly. Like it can feel so binary. Do I start speaking up in this?

Pam (21:31)
Yeah, it’s growth, it’s self confidence.

Sarah (21:50)
in these regular meetings or not? Like there’s a clear example. Or do I launch my podcast or not? Do I start showing up online with my new blog or not? Right, that can sound very binary, do it or not. Those are like three particular examples of what visibility could look like. But one thing that when you were just speaking what triggered for me is like you take a step and then you figure out your next step.

So you do it once and you can say, well, okay, what did I like about that? What worked about that experience? How might I want to do it differently the next time? And then you can sort of change courses, change shift a little bit if you want, change things a little bit for the next one. Then again, you get more data, more information, check in with yourself, decide on your next step. So that’s about growth too. It’s figuring it out as you go. It’s not just like, I do it or not? Okay, I start and then I get to keep

creating and keep shifting as I go

Pam (22:50)
Yeah, this is all about evolution. It’s not like one day you wake up and you’re like, I’m gonna be visible. Right? It’s, it’s, it’s so much of it is building confidence in yourself and in the message that you have or the value that you bring or in your voice in speaking up, it is developing confidence and you don’t just wake up one day with that.

Sarah (22:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Pam (23:17)
You build it with baby steps, with taking small chances, with raising your hand in a meeting, with whatever that is. And then it grows from there. And then in five years, you look back and you’re like, my God, I used to be the person that would never speak and now I’ve got a podcast.

Sarah (23:32)
Yeah, and you remind me actually in in of a time in my nonprofit days I remember I in an organization that I worked for I went out for two jobs with internal jobs And I didn’t get either of them and I was you mortified. I was super upset and One of the women it was a panel

And one of the women took me out for coffee after. And I said, you know, can I get some feedback from you? And she said, yeah. She said, well, I’m to be really candid with you. I thought, okay, uh-oh, but okay. And she said, I had heard great things about you. And yet in the interview, I felt that you didn’t say much. And you didn’t really share

any strong opinions about the work that we were doing. And then she said, do you have any? Yeah. And it was confronting for me. I felt embarrassed for sure. And the truth is I did have opinions. I had all kinds of opinions, had all kinds of thoughts and I had become…

Pam (24:35)
Oof.

Sarah (24:55)
complacent, not out of laziness, but out of a way that I thought my role was more of a support role versus a leadership role without realizing that even though I didn’t hold a leadership title, I could still contribute in a meaningful strategic way, you know, when given the opportunity. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. I had become so used to playing more of a support role and really being asked.

before I shared something. So that was a key moment for me when she gave me that feedback. was certainly hard to hear, but it stayed with me.

Pam (25:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s kind of the idea of like, act as if you have this, the role that you want, you know, like contribute as though you are in the position that you want, you don’t have to get to that position before you start speaking up and sharing your ideas. Like that’s a step that people can take right now is just start contributing in that way.

Sarah (25:58)
Yeah.

Yeah. And that’s something that I share with all of my students in my leadership presence and presentation classes and public speaking classes and my leadership clients. say, ask for opportunities, request opportunities to talk about your thoughts, to talk about your contributions, to talk about the work you’ve done. Don’t wait for people to notice them.

Ask for time on the agenda. Ask for time with your supervisor. Even if you can get five minutes, ask for that time. Prepare a well-crafted clear message about what you’re bringing to the table, what you’ve noticed, ideas that they want, that you want their reflections on. Because otherwise we can become very set in our roles and think, you know, everybody else is doing this and like, I’m just going to stay here and, you know, help when needed.

and I’ll be noticed for that eventually. I’ll be noticed for all my hard work. And that may or may not happen. And so to me, that’s a lot about what visibility is too. It’s saying, ideas matter and to find a suitable way to share those in whatever form it is.

Pam (27:06)
You

Yeah.

I think that’s a key there, the suitable way to share because some people could kind of have the takeaway here of like, well, I just need to be louder and talk more and that’s not it, right? You have to use context. You have to speak up at the right time. You have to make sure that you’re doing it in a way that it is beneficial.

Sarah (27:32)
Mm, mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (27:56)
not just to you, but to the organization. Because if you are doing it in a way that is selfish or disruptive, then you’re going to have the opposite effect. People are just gonna shut you out rather than draw you in and listen to you.

Sarah (28:04)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Pam (28:15)
I was also thinking as you were talking that this brings up imposter syndrome, right? When we’re thinking about being more visible or taking on a greater role, then you start to get that feeling of like, well, I don’t belong there. Like, who am I to want this thing? It’s something that affects everyone. And I think it’s part of the fear thing that we were talking about earlier, but…

You can have imposter syndrome without having fear. You can just feel like I don’t belong here. Who am I to be here? And it affects everyone. I think just recognizing that it’s happening is huge for stopping the, like for not letting it hold you back. Like you’re still gonna feel it, but like naming it and going, I’m feeling imposter syndrome and I can be here anyway. Right?

Sarah (28:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it’s a yes and I love it. then a big perspective shift that really helps me with that is thinking I don’t need to be the foremost leading expert on this topic to contribute an idea. If you’re sitting in that meeting, you have something to offer.

Pam (29:13)
Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Sarah (29:33)
If you are an expert in your field, you have something to offer. If you’re passionate about something and you’ve been learning about it, you have something to offer. And it might be the thing that somebody else needs to hear.

Pam (29:46)
Yeah. I love that because I was just listening to a podcast earlier where they were talking about, I’m not even going to talk about who the guy is, but they were talking about a guy who is not an expert in climate change, but he went on a podcast and talked about climate change and said a whole bunch of stuff that is so totally not, not true. And I was thinking about like how we do have all of these people who have absolutely no problem spouting off

things that know, they’re not experts in this stuff, but they will go and they will say it confidently. And then we have this whole other group of people who like should be speaking confidently, or at least sharing, you know, interesting things. And it’s like, we need more of that for, for the people that need their voices heard. So yeah, I love that. It’s definitely something that we all need to work on is just like,

Sarah (30:28)
We do.

Pam (30:39)
You don’t have to be an expert. You can speak up. You can share from your experience. You don’t have to have a PhD. can have experience. Yeah.

Sarah (30:48)
Indeed. Okay, can we talk some more about some of the benefits because we talked about how it’s confidence building, it’s a growth opportunity. I also want to talk about opportunities more broadly because an ultimate outcome of increased visibility is that you’ll receive more opportunities because more people will know what you offer.

Pam (30:53)
Yeah.

Mm, great, yeah.

Absolutely.

Sarah (31:15)
Right, so an obvious example would be in the context of business. You’re sharing client success stories, you’re sharing your approach to work, and then other potential clients who might really benefit from you will think, okay, great, I know this person exists, let me hire her, let me talk to her about her business. So the same thing with if you’d like to get a new job in the future, start making yourself more visible now so other potential friends and colleagues will know.

to call on you when a suitable opportunity comes up.

Pam (31:48)
Yeah, definitely. That’s something that I talk to other people in marketing about, like other consultants. They ask me like, how do you get clients? How do you get referrals? And my number one tip to them is tell people what you do, what kind of clients you’re looking for, and that you are available. Like, don’t assume that people know, don’t assume that you’re top of mind for them.

Sarah (32:06)
Mm.

Pam (32:15)
you know, for whatever you’re doing, if you’re looking for a job, if you’re looking for clients, if you’re, you know, trying to make friends, whatever it is, tell people. They’re not going to know if you don’t tell them. Yeah.

Sarah (32:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tell people! Okay. So yeah, so that’s a benefit more opportunities. There’s another benefit, which is that you, I’ve got two other benefits I want to mention. Another benefit is that you are giving yourself the agency to share more about you in a way that feels right.

Pam (32:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (32:52)
Like you’re exercising that right. So you’re playing a role in your own story.

Pam (32:52)
Okay.

like you’re showing up more fully.

Sarah (33:03)
You’re showing it more fully and you’re putting in more details. Like if you want to talk about your food planning, your meal planning, that then becomes a part of the story of Pam that we get to learn about. If you don’t share it, we don’t know that.

Pam (33:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, tell people.

Sarah (33:22)
Tell people in other words. Okay. Thank you for bottom lining that. Okay. Now my last point and this last point, I mean, many of my ideas were further inspired by, by what I heard at the conference. This last point was very much inspired from what actually the keynote and this keynote speaker part of me is named Sheri Graydon and just a wonderful speaker, a journalist and a researcher.

Pam (33:25)
you

Sarah (33:52)
And she discussed the fact that, so she was speaking to a room of all women, right? She was talking about like the opportunity of using our voices when we have, taking the opportunity when we have it. Because the truth is not all women and not all individuals with marginalized identities are given that privilege. And so when you take that opportunity,

you might be able to share a message that will inspire other women or support them in ways that you don’t even know. So it’s almost like a, like a responsibility in that sense. And that was something that really stuck with me.

Pam (34:38)
So we’re talking about instances where maybe someone is asked to give a presentation or speak at a conference or something like that and they pass. And so then they’re not taking that opportunity when they’ve had someone offer it to them and by not taking that opportunity, then they’re not sharing a message that could be valuable to.

other people that are dealing with the same things that they are or, you know, would not maybe create an opportunity for the next, the next woman in line. That ties right into one of my tips for becoming more visible, which is kind of a two sided one, which is to get a mentor and to be a mentor. So by

Sarah (35:11)
Indeed.

Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Pam (35:31)
getting a mentor, obviously you are gaining their experience and learning from them and they will probably create those opportunities for you. They may refer you to be the person that speaks at a conference or they may recommend you for a promotion or whatever that is. So I think getting a mentor is an obvious thing, but being a mentor, I think helps you gain confidence in your experience.

It helps you see where you are an expert and where your voice is valuable. It gives you a new way to be self-reflective. And it kind of takes the focus off of you because you’re giving advice and mentoring to someone else, which you actually, find, when you give advice, you’re actually giving advice that you need to hear yourself. So you end up growing without realizing it while you’re helping this other person.

Sarah (36:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I love it. Okay. So get a mentor and be a mentor. Good.

Pam (36:36)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah (36:37)
right, one of my tips and I touched on this earlier is remembering that you can do it your way and to spend some time thinking about what strategic helpful visibility means to you. So that looks like defining what your goals are and thinking about the different avenues of visibility.

So there are some people that I work with and for them having an online presence is not desirable for a variety of reasons. So then what are the other options? Okay, maybe you wanna write papers and put those online, right? Where you’re not in video, but you’re just like, and you’re not sharing your location all the time, but you’re sharing information that way. Maybe you wanna speak at conferences.

and have those interactions and be known on the conference circuit and deliver speeches there. Okay. Maybe you want to be known in your workplace as a community builder. So then you can start a monthly lunchtime speaking club where you talk about certain issues that are important to you that you want to be known as a thought leader in or a community builder in.

Maybe you want more visibility in your own local community where you live. So there can be local clubs, organizations, schools, et cetera, where you forge relationships and you have live events. So think about your particular professional goals and what locations, whether they’re virtual or in person, would best serve you and then develop a plan that works for you.

one person’s visibility, yours, you are unique. You get to have her own, your own roadmap.

Pam (38:43)
As you’re talking about that, I’m kind of like picturing this person and you know their their whole identity and and maybe they want to gain more confidence and visibility at work, but that feels like too much. Like that that’s too scary. I’m not ready to start speaking up there. I’m not ready to build that confidence yet. You can do

Sarah (39:02)
Mm.

Pam (39:08)
things in other areas of your life that build that confidence that can then channel into you feeling more confident at work. I’m thinking about volunteering somewhere, getting involved in another organization, starting a group like you said, or joining a group, and building your confidence elsewhere, and then letting that build your confidence in your career or in this other space that you’re not quite ready to get it there.

Sarah (39:30)
Mm-hmm.

Sure. Yeah.

Pam (39:38)
yet. Like it’s you’re a whole person, like it’s not siloed. So you can you can do things to be more confident elsewhere and then let that carry through into these spaces where you’re not ready to push yet.

Sarah (39:52)
Great idea. Yeah, work on the skill and then you can move it into the different areas. Another concrete tip is to have a specific goal in terms of, okay, this is what strategic visibility would mean for me. This is how I’m going to get something out of it. And then coming up with a goal for,

Pam (39:58)
Yeah.

Sarah (40:19)
Something that’s measurable. Like do you want to speak at three conferences this year? Do you want to write five articles on LinkedIn and share them or do you want to write about five career You know insights that you have on your sector and share them on LinkedIn or another platform Do you want to start your own Substack and just like share it with your inner community before you share it with everyone?

Come up with something concrete and tangible and set a goal that’s not super overwhelming. Maybe it’s doing it three times, five times, 10 times so that you get some practice moving through the resistance and fear and coming out on the other side. And then at the end of it, you’ll have a small volume of work that you can say, okay, I did that.

Pam (41:08)
Yeah, pushing through that resistance is the huge thing, right? Like just taking those baby steps. I’m also thinking about, there’s another podcaster, Chris Williamson, he’s got this podcast, Modern Wisdom. And he talks about how our identity lags behind by like one to two years. So you start doing new things, you know, becoming a new person and everyone else sees

Sarah (41:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Pam (41:38)
that you’ve changed, but your identity hasn’t quite caught up with it yet. So you still feel that like, I’m not the person who, you know, publishes my posts on LinkedIn or, you know, has a podcast or whatever it is. So just like keep that in mind that you are going to constantly have this resistance and this fear and this imposter syndrome and all of these things that are holding you back. So if you can keep your eye on that goal.

that you were just talking about of finding this goal that I can set for what I want to do now. And then I’ll build a bigger goal and I’ll build a bigger goal and just keep your eye on that goal so that you can push through that resistance and understand that your identity hasn’t caught up yet with the great things that you’re doing and the major changes that you’ve made. So just keep your eye on that goal so that you can not trust that angry little voice in your head that is holding you back.

Sarah (42:36)
Don’t listen to that voice. Let, no, it doesn’t listen to us. We know what we’re talking about. Go, be visible. We’re cheering you on.

Pam (42:39)
It doesn’t know what it’s talking about.

Yes. Yes.