In this episode Pam & Sarah discuss:

Links, Corrections, and Whatnot

Nothing yet!

Other Ways to Listen & Subscribe

APPLE PODCASTS

SPOTIFY

Transcript

This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

[00:00:00] Pam: And it’s such a silly thing, but for 25 years I thought about this every once in a while. Every time I would think about this guy, I would think about that and I would just be mortified. Like what? Like of all the choices that I possibly could have made, that was the choice I made. Yeah, and so I was embarrassed about it for a really long time, so I decided I don’t wanna be embarrassed about this anymore, and I don’t want to have that reinforced loop of being embarrassed about silly little things like that.

​{Intro music}

[00:00:29] Pam: So one of my favorite things to talk about is embarrassing things that I’ve done or ways that I have screwed up because I find that in talking about them, the power kind of dissipates and you are able to let go of some of the embarrassment or the icky feelings around. What you feel you did wrong or just, how this situation went in a way that you wish that it didn’t.

Yeah, and part of that is what we call recovery. It’s bouncing back. So today we wanted to talk about recovery in a broad sense in the sense of how do you come back or feel better after you have done something that you feel is a failure or that you feel like you’ve embarrassed yourself in front of everyone.

And now for the rest of your life, everyone’s gonna think of you as the person that did that thing. So I think you had a broader definition of recovery and could kind of give us that perspective of what we’re actually talking about today.

[00:01:51] Sarah: Yeah, like I, everything you said resonates in terms of sort of those moments that bring us down and how do we bounce back from that?

So when I think of, the need for recovery and the need to kind of build up recovery muscles, it’s really around figuring out ways to help ourselves when we feel discouraged and like when our energy gets low. So there is an ebb and flow well, we’re gonna have good days and bad days.

But when we have those moments, those experiences, whether we’ve, we’ve think that we’ve done something embarrassing or we life throws us a curve ball, or we just feel super discouraged how do we recover from that so that we can continue with life and with the good stuff.

[00:02:47] Pam: How do we build up those muscles so we recover quickly?

[00:02:51] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. How do we build those up?

Do you know why I was super excited to talk about this? Is I think it’s so critical that to work on it. The reason being, when we are thinking about starting something new or going after a new goal, we can get a dopamine hit just thinking about the excitement of starting something.

So that can be a real rush, right. Because we’re kind of fantasizing about how great it’s gonna feel once we’ve done it. And like the beginning stage can feel really intoxicating. And yet like. As we both know, things don’t always go as planned. There’s gonna be glitches, small ones and big ones.

Right. And so, I think if we don’t have a good mindset about it, a good perspective about it, we can make those bumps in the road mean something that they actually don’t. Instead of just oh yeah, this is just something that I get to recover from. So I think that’s why it’s such a kind of a rich topic.

[00:03:51] Pam: It is a very rich topic and it’s bringing back things that we talked about in the perfectionism episode. I think a big part of it is reasonable expectations. We expect that we’re going to, not have any failures or that we’re going to have this great idea that’s super exciting and everything’s gonna work out exactly the way we planned when we know that’s not true.

We have the perfect example of that with this show, which every time we get together to record, we spend the first 20 minutes dealing with tech issues.

[00:04:22] Sarah: Every time.

[00:04:23] Pam: Every single time. So, If you can have realistic expectations about what you should be able to achieve or how things should go, then you can go into it thinking this is my plan.

Here’s how I would like things to go. But they probably won’t go exactly according to plan. And here’s what I can do when things go off the rails or when things don’t turn out the way that I want them to.

[00:04:56] Sarah: Yes. And actually I love the example about our recordings and learning as we go, right?

There’s microphone problems, video problems, wifi connection problems this, that, and the other. Right?

one time our videos were way off, i tried to take it in the shed and it didn’t work. The light didn’t work. Everything. Right. But what would’ve happened if, I attached to a story like, oh, it’s not meant to be. I’m so shitty with tech that like, obviously forget it. Right. And I think it, we can very easily fall into that. Well, I know I can fall into that trap of well, it’s a sign. If I don’t keep a bigger perspective of oh, small glitches are meant to happen and how can I bounce back from this without turning it into a problem,

[00:05:45] Pam: Right. Or no one else has this problem. No one else deals with this. Which is obviously not reality.

[00:05:52] Sarah: Totally smooth for everyone else. Their wifi always works!

[00:05:59] Pam: So I think that’s one of the big tools is recognizing that it’s not just you. That this is just life. Life is not smooth. It is not perfect.

It doesn’t go according to plan. And you can recognize that. You can recognize that something happened, that there was a problem, without judging yourself. You can create that separation of this is a thing, it’s not me.

[00:06:25] Sarah: Yeah. I think that’s a really important part of it. I’m seeing kind of two huge parts. One is not judging yourself for the setback, and the other one is not letting it derail your plans. Not allowing it to stop what you’re doing, but just to recover and keep going.

[00:06:39] Pam: So, there’s a story that I have told to a lot of friends and I actually did an Instagram post about it years ago. It was something that I did when I was younger that is one of those memories that every time it comes up it is like so embarrassing. It was mortifying and it’s such a silly thing, but this is the same pattern that happens with all of these things. So, I’m gonna tell the story to illustrate how we can use these tools and build that recovery muscle with little minor things that create the habit loop in your head of thinking of something that you think you failed at, or you weren’t, you didn’t do well at, or you embarrassed yourself at, and then you.

If you let that loop happen and you always go into embarrassment mode and judgment mode and beating yourself up, all you’re doing is reinforcing that muscle. So if you can build the muscle with the silly little things of recovering, then you become better at doing that with the bigger things that really end up mattering in your life.

I was young and I was kind of on a date with a guy and we were gonna watch a movie at his house. So I had never watched a movie with a boy before and he laid down on his couch and there’s like nowhere else for me to sit. So I was like, well, where do you want me to lay? And he was like, well, lay here with me.

So, I laid down on him as though he were the couch. Like I put my back on him and just rather than getting like next to him or I don’t, yeah, on him as though he were the couch and proceeded to watch the entire movie that way. And it’s such a silly thing but for 25 years, I thought about this every once in a while.

Every time I would think about this guy, I would think about that and I would just be mortified. Like what? Like of all the choices that I possibly could have made, that was the choice I made. And so I was embarrassed about it for a really long time. So I decided I don’t wanna be embarrassed about this anymore, and I don’t want to have that reinforced loop of being embarrassed about silly little things like that.

So I got on Instagram and I recorded that story, and I told everyone that follows me on Instagram here’s the silly thing that I did. And the inspiration behind that was, if you have a thing that you feel you were embarrassed or you failed at, or that you are holding onto, you can privately tell me to let it off your chest and let that go.

It doesn’t have to stay inside anymore. Or I inspired a couple people to go and post their embarrassing stories as well. Both to let them let it off their chest, but also to create open dialogue so people will see more of we all do embarrassing things. We all fail. We all have setbacks.

[00:09:41] Sarah: Yeah.

And also like that you, that’s your thought about it is that it’s embarrassing. You know what I mean? Whereas other people, like when I think about when I get flustered around things or do things where I feel like I’m losing my cool, and I feel it’s really embarrassing. You might look at me and be like, what?

That’s not really embarrassing. So you were upset about that yet? I look, can look back at it and feel like a judgment around myself for oh, I didn’t act in a similar, like you didn’t know , the cool sort of teenager way to watch a movie with a boy, right? Whereas that’s cute, right?

I actually don’t, I don’t see it as embarrassing yet. I can completely be understanding of the fact that you think of it like that, right? So it’s so interesting because you’re right. Like we can hold onto it as though it’s like we define it as this humiliating thing we’ve done. And I think you’re right, naming it, sharing it can help release some of the weight that it can carry.

[00:10:40] Pam:

Yeah. It’s a story and it goes back to are your expectations realistic? What were the expectations of that teenage girl? Should she have known how to cuddle? Probably not.

[00:10:51] Sarah: So do you know if that, if the guy who you were on a date with saw that Instagram

story?

[00:10:56] Pam: He’s not on Instagram, but we are still in contact and I’ve always meant to ask him if he remembers that, but I haven’t yet.

[00:11:02] Sarah: Well, it would actually be interesting, as a case study does he remember, and or had you conflated it your brain for all these 25 years?

[00:11:12] Pam: Yes, that would be interesting. Which is kind of the next thing. Continuing the trend of talking about what happened. Communicating how you feel about the situation is really important, especially if it’s like an interaction with another person that you feel didn’t go well.

I find that communicating how you felt about the interaction and how you feel you participated in the interaction can be really helpful because like you just said, the other person may not have the story or the idea about what happened that you have. So if you can just say I feel like I didn’t handle that very well.

Or I didn’t think I was my best self in that meeting. I didn’t bring my best ideas or whatever the situation is. If you can just say, this is how I perceived that, that went. What did you see? What do you think it may be that you are the only one that feels like things didn’t go well.

[00:12:14] Sarah: Yeah. That’s super interesting. I’m thinking post Covid because obviously during Covid my social life shrunk in terms of like in person gatherings and stuff. And I remember getting together with people again after those years. And the first time it was like a couple outdoor parties and stuff.

And I remember afterwards, saying to Adam, my husband, oh, like I think I was weird in that conversation, or was I talking too much about myself? And just like second guessing how I was acting. I don’t typically think of myself as someone with major social anxiety.

Like I don’t tend to replay conversations. But I remember after Covid, I was doing that a lot. Like noticing things about myself. And kind of judging oh, I said this and then they said that, and then was it weird that I said that and did I include that person enough or was it, and I just noticed myself being kind of critical and having that sort of anxiety around it.

[00:13:16] Pam: Do you think that was from being out of practice?

[00:13:19] Sarah: Yeah. I do. I think it was from being out of practice and then suddenly there was, it felt like higher stakes oh my gosh. Hanging out with people. Right? And hanging out with people who aren’t like my immediate family or my closest colleagues.

It’s more peripheral friend groups. So yeah, I felt out of practice. It felt rusty and it felt like a bigger deal than it was before. It was interesting that you brought that up cuz I wasn’t even thinking about that in the context of recovery. But yeah, it is important to kind of just like name that for myself and if I feel it’s necessary or if I feel like it would help the relationship, just name it with the people and then move on.

Cuz otherwise, this is kind of leading to something else I wanna talk about. Like, why is it important that we talk about this? Cuz like, what would the impact be if I totally couldn’t recover from that? Stop socializing? I don’t want that. Like I, I love socializing, right? So I think learning how to just kind of see this, notice the impact.

Oh wow. I felt discouraged. I felt, uncomfortable. I felt bad about myself, whatever it is. And then taking steps to kind of step out of that is important just in order to keep living.

[00:14:36] Pam: So what about situations where you actually did screw up? We’ve talked about a lot of things where it’s like your perspective and , maybe you did something embarrassing or maybe you were awkward, but what about if you really blow it? You’ve got a big presentation at work and you don’t do well and even, you’ve discussed it with your boss and they said, yeah, that did, that really didn’t go well.

Do we use the same tools in those instances, like what’s different about those situations?

[00:15:05] Sarah: So I think those situations call for self-compassion. Big time. I made a mistake. I made a mistake. I’m human. Right? I did my best and I made a mistake. And this is what it feels like and I’m practicing forgiving myself for blowing that presentation or not living up to my standards or not handling that well. Self-compassion is a really important part of that.

[00:15:43] Pam: Very important, yeah. No judgment. And I think, taking a second to recognize, was this a one time thing? Did something just go wrong here? And what can I learn from it?

Or is this a pattern? Do I find that, whenever I have a big presentation, I, there’s something in, my anxiety or the way I procrastinate or something that is causing me to not perform well in these instances. So is it a one time thing that I can say, oh, I see what went wrong there.

I screwed up. I forgive myself. Or is this a pattern? Is this something that I need to look into further?

[00:16:26] Sarah: Yeah, a hundred percent. And that’s where the self-awareness piece, one of our, one of our favorite topics.

[00:16:32] Pam: Yes.

[00:16:32] Sarah: It weaves its way into every conversation. Right? Just being aware of, oh yeah.

Is this a pattern? Is this something where I want to get some support? Is also a productive way to recover. Right? So there’s the sort of self, there’s accept, naming it, accepting it. That it happened and then saying, okay, well what do I wanna do about it? Is this a pattern? Is it something I want help with? That’s one of the constructive things we can do.

[00:16:59] Pam: And looking at common threads. So not just has this exact thing happened before, maybe do I procrastinate until the point where I’m not prepared for a multitude of things in my life. Is this an overarching pattern that is maybe a deeper thing?

It, it doesn’t have to be the exact same situation over and over again. You can kind of look at, is this just, is this something that I’m… Causing is a loaded word, but, do I have patterns throughout my life?

[00:17:35] Sarah: Yeah. Is there some responsibility I wanna take?

[00:17:37] Pam: Yeah. What can I learn here?

[00:17:39] Sarah: Yeah. What can I learn? That’s a good way to phrase it.

Another thing I was thinking in terms of the concept of recovery, we’ve talked about recovering from feeling embarrassed over making mistakes, whether real or perceived. That’s one category.

Then there’s also recovering from stress or disappointment from the the outside world. Like I was thinking in preparing for today a lot around recovering from moments of anxiety or stress. And different times in my life where I felt like an anxious period of time or stressful episode would kind of derail me for longer.

And then other times where I’m able to kind of recover faster from that.

[00:18:28] Pam: What were the differences in those times?

[00:18:31] Sarah: Well, I think that one key difference is just an awareness of this concept. And I think as well, like there’s like small, there’s small stress and there’s big stress, right?

So, I’m thinking to like, a small stress from the, it was like week, a week or two ago, and I’ve told you before, I’m a newer driver and one thing that I don’t enjoy is being in like really cramped parking lots. And navigating into the spot. And I had a really busy day. I oddly had all these things out of the house, like from session to session and had the car and the kids and all, everything, right?

Kind of like a house of cards, right? So don’t be late for anything. And I had researched, well, where’s the parking lot? So I’d done all this in advance and then, I drove into the wrong parking lot. It was one building over. Right? And of course it’s my idea of hell, this particular one filled with cars in rush hour, right?

And so it’s oh, all I have to do is find the exit. But then it’s like finding the exit was on a super busy street and I had to pull out backwards. It was just not my idea of a good time. And I was concerned that this was going to, I was going to be late . and then of course in my brain, then one problem leads to another problem.

And I literally was speaking to myself alone in the car saying, recover from this. This doesn’t have to be a problem. You don’t have to let this be a problem. You can recover from this. Because I could see, oh, I could turn this into a thing.

And I just kept saying it and saying it. And lo and behold, I got out. I did find the next parking lot. I did park the car and I’m telling the story now, but I’m saying it as a story of triumph. Right? I resisted kind of going and then telling everyone, oh my gosh, the most horrible thing happened in the parking lot. But I could have chosen that.

But anyway, so for, in that instance, I mean, it’s a, it was a small deal and yet it could have turned into a bigger deal. But I said, I’m gonna make this be a small deal. And just by saying that mantra out loud, I was reprogramming my brain in that moment to kind of to shape the story.

[00:20:54] Pam: Yeah. Well you are actively choosing how to respond in the moment, which I think, we were talking about before, like after something has happened, how do you reflect on it and change it. But like in the moment, you also have the choice of going into a tailspin and letting it ruin your day and get anxious and putting you into mental state that is chaotic and can affect everything else that happens. Or being like, I’m in this. And I can get out of it.

[00:21:26] Sarah: Yes.

[00:21:26] Pam: I had a very similar situation just last week. My mom flew in and she had to land at LAX, which is a nightmare of an airport. And traffic getting there is awful. And her flight ended up landing like 40 minutes early.

So I’m driving an hour and a half to get her and I’m like 45 minutes away and she’s oh, we’re on the ground. And I’m like, oh my God. I’m 45 minutes away still. And then I get stuck behind two accidents and a funeral procession. So it’s like just. My ETA is getting further and further out, and I’m thinking my poor mom is, by herself now sitting in the airport waiting for me, for God knows how long, and I could have gone into like anxiety tailspin and driving like this.

But that wouldn’t have gotten me there any faster. It wouldn’t have changed traffic, it wouldn’t have done anything except then bring my chaotic energy into my visit with my mom. So I did the same thing. I was like, this is where I am. I’m gonna get there and freaking out about it isn’t gonna get me there any faster.

So put on a podcast and enjoy the ride.

[00:22:34] Sarah: But I love that cause it’s kinda like catching it, like catching the thought and like that sort of urge to oh my gosh, I could really indulge in this and get into a tailspin.

[00:22:45] Pam: And that’s when recovery starts. Because I think so many people, they and this is a natural reaction and it’s something that I would’ve done in the past as well.

But you’re in that moment and it’s so then maybe I call someone, maybe I call CK and tell him what’s going on and bitch about it and then bring the negativity into him. And then all I’m doing is just making it bigger, right. And so you can start the recovery right there and stop the snowball of dragging it into everyone else’s lives.

And then, yelling at the parking attendant. We’re creating not just recovery, but better energy now for everyone.

[00:23:25] Sarah: Yes. Yes. And I wanna say, I feel like these are kind of… there’s ones that we can self-manage. There’s situations like that where we can self-manage, and then there are moments where you would wanna call it CK or some other person.

You don’t wanna do life alone. You know when you’re feeling really overwhelmed or when you need help, if it’s something that you can’t recover from. Just using those cognitive tools in the moment. Then I think there’s another level of stress where we need to call in.

[00:23:58] Pam: Well, there’s a difference between calling in and saying, Hey, I need this right now. And calling in just bitching about whatever it is.

Because I’m thinking now of some moments that I can catch and calm myself down and then other situations that will trigger me.

Whether it’s like a stress response or an anxious response or fear, and it’s bigger, right? And then in those moments it’s more to recover. It’s like not an instant process or a 10 minute, 20 minute process. It’s can take, a couple of days or longer to kind of move through that. So I think the concept is still the same of an awareness and a desire for choice.

Like an agency in it.. But I think, in those moments our nervous system is impacted in a different way and we need more nurturing.

One of the tools that I find really helpful for everything in life, I think I talk about it on every episode, but it is the idea of impermanence that no matter what is happening right now, it will change.

In one way or another, it may get worse, it may get better, you don’t know. But when you’re in something, when you are, reeling from a failure or embarrassment or a fight with someone, whatever it is, you feel like, I’m gonna feel like this forever. And having that awareness that you are not going to feel like this forever and that you can recover.

And that there are tools to use, or even sometimes there’s nothing that you need to do. You just need to give it time and give it some separation and let it dissipate.

[00:25:47] Sarah: And then I think where like where I see us going now in the conversation is okay what do we do? What are some mechanisms for or techniques to help recovery?

What, whether we’re recovering from a moment of stress, feeling embarrassed, feeling like we’ve let ourselves down or somebody else down. What do we do to recover? And so one of the things you’re saying is, yeah, to open up and to be honest, whether that’s with a therapist, a close friend, a coach.

And I am also reminded of times when I’ve been like fixated on a certain issue and just kind of can it can just be like circling and something that’s really effective is just to go do something else. So being active in any way, going for a walk, exercising.

Doing something for fun, doing a new recipe and going and buying the stuff, going and buying the ingredients and making it, making the full meal. Don’t just, shove a sandwich down cuz that’s a fact, unless that’s what you want. But don’t do it because it’s the fastest thing.

Actually do something where you’re like, oh, I am consciously doing something for someone else or for myself or for my life. That’s like for the sake of caring.

[00:27:11] Pam: Well, it’s a a pattern interrupt? Cuz you get into that pattern of reliving the thing, thinking about it constantly. And you can’t get out of it.

And if you can do something that takes your attention away for a little bit. Not in an avoidance way, not in a unhealthy way, but just in I gotta stop reliving this thing and go take a break from it. Get some perspective on it. You can get out of that loop of being stuck thinking about it.

And sometimes you do that and then you go, oh, that it really wasn’t that big of a deal. Or maybe it was and I know how to move forward.

[00:27:46] Sarah: Maybe it was a big deal and all these other things still exist. It’s a big deal in the scheme of all these other big deals.

Big and little deals. Right? And one thing, That I find helpful as well is really, as a good pattern interrupter, is focusing on other people’s stories. So, is there someone else who wants to talk to me about what’s going on in their life? Is there somebody else who I can help?

Is there a novel I can read? For me, novels are like… one of my therapies is really novels because I love just remembering that the world is big. Yeah. It takes me out of my own head. I really only started reading novels a lot again, like I did as a young child, then I started again in the past five years or so, and now, re I really read religiously because I find it so therapeutic and enjoyable.

What am I getting at when we’re so, as you said, circling in our head about the problem, it’s well think about somebody else’s problem or joy or story just make it about them. And I think that can be a huge relief.

[00:28:58] Pam: And refocusing the center of the story can be really helpful because I think we have this view that we are the center of the universe and everything is about us. And a lot of the things that I’ve dealt with that I’ve had to recover from in my life are things that I feel like I wronged other people.

And maybe treated them poorly. Because, in my twenties I didn’t really have great self-esteem and I hurt other people because of that, and that really wore on me for a long time. So that was one of those things that I needed to recover from. And the way I did that was going back to people that I maybe hadn’t talked to in 10 years and saying I feel like I harmed you in this situation and I apologized for it and all these things.

And so I reframed, I centered them into the story that they were the person that this story was about rather than it was all about me. And that allowed me to acknowledge their feelings and how they were potentially hurt in the process. But 95% of the time, what happened was that person went, oh, I didn’t even notice that, or, I didn’t feel like you hurt me at all, so thank you.

And so it completely allowed me to let that go while making them feel important and recognized.

[00:30:25] Sarah: Wow, isn’t that interesting? Yeah. So again, you have to go back to that guy from the sofa and ask him if he remembers.

[00:30:42] Pam: Yeah, I’ll do that for a future update.

[00:30:45] Sarah: Oh yeah. Okay, good.

But yeah, I love all of this. It’s like getting out of our. Heads and our narrative about it.

That’s another thing I just thought of getting out of our heads. I think sometimes when there’s something we’re fixated on, we can get into this loop and think, well, I can think my way out of that.

I’m gonna problem solve my way out of it.

[00:31:08] Pam: Yeah.

[00:31:09] Sarah: Right? And no, if you haven’t thought of a solution by now, you’re not gonna magically come up with one by rethinking about the same issue, right?

[00:31:21] Pam: Right.

[00:31:21] Sarah: So go do something completely different, find some kind of healing modality. Go have fun with a friend.

Know that your problem is still going to be there to work on, but that release will provide some space and perspective.

[00:31:36] Pam: Yeah. And I wanna bring this back around to the importance of this topic because what we’re really talking about here is developing resiliency.

And it is so important because if you spend a lot of time in rumination and feeling like you’ve failed, feeling embarrassed, feeling all of these things that end up holding you back, you’re spending less time achieving the things that you dream of doing, the goals that you have set, or really just living a full and happy life.

So building that muscle of recovery and knowing things are gonna happen, things are not going to go according to plan. And that’s okay. And I’m gonna be able to bounce back quickly so that I can keep moving on to achieve the next goal.

[00:32:33] Sarah: Yes, I love it. And the other beautiful part about resiliency is that not only do we recover from those setbacks, but we grow from them and we become even stronger and wiser and more compassionate.

Those stories become part of our gifts.

​