In this episode Sarah & Pam discuss:

How perfectionism shows up in different ways for different people.
Why perfectionists don’t actually identify as perfectionists.
How perfectionism fuels anxiety.
How being a high achieving child can lead to perfectionism as an adult.
How perfectionism can prevent you from having fun hobbies.
How avoidance is actually perfectionism.
How perfectionism can limit your career potential.
Phrases that can help reframe thoughts that are holding you back.
Using a growth mindset.
Options for getting help with perfectionism.
Why practicing doing things you’re not good at is important.
How reflection on things you see as mistakes can help you learn.
What reflection means vs. rumination.
How building awareness helps you see patterns as they happen for quicker recovery.
Recommendation for Unwinding Anxiety by Dr. Jud Brewer.
Loving your imperfect self (and others).

Links, Corrections, and Whatnot

Learn about Unwinding Anxiety here or read the book Unwinding Anxiety by Dr. Jud Brewer.

The Saboteurs quiz we discuss is available for free at PositiveIntelligence.com.

The neurofeedback brain training that was used to treat her partner’s anxiety was done by Peak Brain Institute.

“To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.” – Hsin-Hsin Ming: Verses on the Faith-Mind

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Transcript

This transcript was generated by AI so please ignore any weird errors. If there is anything really terrible, let us know.

[00:00:00] Sarah: He laughed and he said, yeah, like we all say that we love growing, but we actually like the way we feel after we’ve grown. The growing part itself is really painful.

{Intro music}

[00:00:13] Pam: I wanted to take a second to start with the definition of perfectionism. , just because I think that it’s used in a lot of different ways, and I wanna start with what the actual definition is and then dig into the different ways that it shows up and then what it actually is.

Because you hear the definition and you’re like, okay, but what actually is it? Yeah. So the definition of perfectionism from the dictionary is, The tendency to demand of others or of oneself an extremely high or even flawless level of performance in excess of what is required by the situation. And the reason I thought that definition was important is specifically because of that last part where it says in excess of what is required by the situation. , because there’s a lot of instances of people striving for perfection and it’s healthy in a lot of cases.

If you have an elite athlete, for instance. They are striving for a level of performance that is so far beyond. The average person needs to strive for , and they have to do it in their role to be competitive at an elite level. . So we have to take perfectionism or the mindset of striving for a certain level of performance in context. Is my behavior, is my reaction, is what I’m feeling in this moment in this context, .

[00:01:50] Sarah: Is it warranted for what is actually going on?

[00:01:53] Pam: Exactly.

Is it reasonable? Yeah. So I think that’s a good kind of starting place for discussing what perfectionism is. So that we don’t get into this discussion of I need to, perform at this level. Yeah. It’s really context.

[00:02:08] Sarah: I really appreciate you starting with that because I think perfectionism will have almost like a positive connotation. People will sometimes wear it as a badge of honor. The old trope of what to say in a job interview of when someone says, what’s your weakness?

And then the answer. I’m a perfectionist, right? As though it’s like a hidden. , you’re pretending to demonstrate, a weakness or an area of growth, but you’re really showing that something good about yourself. That’s funny. Yeah. , I think that it is worn as a badge of honor and I think people can use what, that example you gave of like elite performance or there are some instances where we do wanna strive for excellence.

We do wanna really, bring something. and special to the world, right? And so we use that as not an excuse, a reason for which, yeah. We might, have these like expectations of flawless levels of performance, when in fact it’s just not called for. And flawless…

[00:03:07] Pam: it’s unreasonable.

[00:03:09] Sarah: It’s unreasonable. Yeah. Yeah. Even that word, I don’t, I dislike that word.

[00:03:15] Pam: I do too.

[00:03:16] Sarah: You do?

[00:03:17] Pam: Yeah, I do. Yeah. I think with me, I was an overachieving child and I think this is a common story with a lot of kids that, like school was pretty easy, like I always got A’s and things like that.

So I lived under an illusion of perfection. For a long time, like I was just I was good at school, I was, could do whatever I set my mind to doing and then I became an adult and it was like, oh, actually things are hard. . Yeah. Isn’t as easy as it was when you were a kid. Even my first semester in college was really a huge reality check. Where I went from…

[00:03:55] Sarah: so was mine

[00:03:57] Pam: was it?

[00:03:57] Sarah: So was mine. Yeah. Yeah, it was. And really unpleasant.

[00:04:01] Pam: Unpleasant.

[00:04:02] Sarah: Big fat B minuses.

[00:04:04] Pam: Oh gosh. Yours was even better than mine. I got a 2.14 GPA my first semester of college, which is like Cs, I think just, for me, terrible. And it was like I’ve gotten A’s my entire life, . So I think that there’s probably a lot of people out there that do live a good chunk of their lives. Without having to fail, without running up against things being difficult. And so we don’t know how to deal with it when they are and I think that’s one side of perfectionism is. , the achievements and the doing things. . And then there’s the kind of smaller and maybe even more insidious ways that it shows up, which is like my experience of it and what you helped me realize and work through when we worked together was that I had this idea.

I couldn’t make mistakes, or not even mistakes, but like that, that I had to be flawless and it was in everything. If I cooked a dinner that wasn’t good, that was the end of the world, or if I sent an email with a typo in it, like and those those little day-to-day things that it’s that’s just life and you’re not going to be perfect at those.

But I felt like I had to be, but I actually didn’t realize that I felt that I had to be until you pointed it out. Does that make sense?

[00:05:32] Sarah: Yes, it really does. What’s coming up for me is this idea of like perfectionistic tendency, but often people don’t, we don’t realize that we are exhibiting that cuz we think “I’m not perfect”.

Yeah, I’m not a perfectionist cause I’m not perfect. Look at all the mistakes I make. How could I be a perfectionist? And it’s “no, you’re making mistakes cuz you’re participating in life.”

[00:05:56] Pam: Yeah. And the result isn’t the perfectionism, it’s the behavior on a day-to-day basis. It’s the…

[00:06:05] Sarah: Yeah.

It’s your perception of yourself. Which is perfectionistic, like you’re holding yourself to this high standard. Which is untenable and creates a lot of suffering. It does. And a lot of other negative impacts.

[00:06:21] Pam: Yeah. It created a lot of anxiety for me. I learned that a huge chunk of the cause of my anxiety was my own expectations of myself. And like not letting myself be human, just be a person and, having grace and like just realizing that this is just life and you’re not a robot.

[00:06:44] Sarah: Yeah.

Yeah. It’s so true. We hold ourselves, we can hold ourselves to such high standards and then fall short of those ideals because we’re participating, because we’re writing emails and talking to people and sharing ideas and listening and contributing and trying to help and no one is a hundred percent because we don’t work in a vacuum. We’re like working, first of all, we’re humans with needs and fatigue and distractions and all that stuff. And then we’re working with others. And so there’s factors we haven’t thought of. There’s feelings we don’t understand. There’s circumstances that are nuanced and so there’s no way, despite our best intentions, that we’re gonna cause no harm ever.

[00:07:25] Pam: Yeah. Or not even cause no harm. It can just be. Like one, one of my huge things with perfectionism is being misunderstood. I hate feeling like I’m trying to communicate and this person doesn’t get what I’m trying to say. Okay. Or I’ve sent this email and it was taken wrong. Or, anything that happens and those aren’t necessarily harm causing situations but incredibly frustrating cuz I feel like I’m not conveying this properly or I’m, it’s something I’m doing wrong. But I’m communicating with another human who has their own perceptions, they missed breakfast that day, like whatever it is. Their own assumptions and filters and moods and everything.

[00:08:14] Sarah:

And so then, but then I’m hearing like then you berate or berate yourself or beat up, beat yourself up for not doing it well enough. Like Exactly. I didn’t say this properly. I didn’t do a good enough job. Yep. Yes.

Yeah.

[00:08:30] Pam: Yeah. So that was a big thing that you helped me identify when we were working together, because I did have, I had a lot of email anxiety and I think that is a pretty common thing that a lot of people deal with is you see an email come in and it’s oh, what is this email gonna say? . And a lot of it was self-created because, I’m sending emails , so I’m gonna get emails back,

[00:08:51] Sarah: hopefully. 

[00:08:52] Pam: Or not. . And so it was this pressure of either, the response to the email that I sent is not gonna be the response that I wanted or if it’s a fresh email, I’m not going to live up to the expectations of this other person. And so I was projecting my own idea of what their expectations were based on my level of perfectionism. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I never identified as a perfectionist, like you said, perfectionist.

[00:09:23] Sarah: What would you, how would you have identified it back then?

[00:09:26] Pam: I think that I knew that I was like a high achiever that I wanted to do well. ,So maybe that’s what it was, is I just thought I want to be good at my job. I want to do well. It wasn’t, I have to, and I’m not,

[00:09:41] Sarah: I’m not doing well enough.

[00:09:43] Pam: Because there…. There’s yeah…but in, in those circumstances or maybe even, yeah, in general, I’m not doing well enough because there’s no , no key performance indicator in life. You can’t look at your day every day. I, I did X, Y, and Z, so I know that I’m hitting these achievement levels. Yes.

So if you’re just living your life and you’re like, I’m not good enough, I’m not good enough, I’m not good enough. , because you don’t have a, like a yard stick to measure , how you’re doing , then every day you’re not.

[00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This reminds me of our conversation last time about celebrating small wins.

Yeah. Or celebrating non wins, right? Like really designing how we wanna evaluate ourselves because if we just let our brain do it on default, it’s likely gonna say, you’re not good enough. Yeah. Because this is leading to, why are we, why is perfectionism or perfectionistic tendency so common?

[00:10:43] Pam: Yeah.

[00:10:43] Sarah: There’s nothing wrong with us that for those of us who feel perfectionistic, like our society tells us to perform. We’re taught to perform, we’re socialized to achieve and do really great work and. Be really likable and not make mistakes and look a certain way and all that kind of stuff.

So that is creating these high standards like all around us these standards that are impossible. Yeah. So it takes so much awareness just to even say, oh, like I’m like part of a game. Like I’m part of a system, right? I’m like being fooled right into thinking I’m not allowed to have a typo. That there’s something wrong with me for having a typo. It’s bananas. It’s bananas that we would beat ourselves up for that .

[00:11:31] Pam: Yeah. I like that you said I’m playing a game. It’s like we’re participating in a game that we don’t know the rules. Yes. And we didn’t actually agree to play. Yeah.

That’s interesting. Yeah.

[00:11:51] Sarah: Yeah. So I think there’s like a lot of, there’s a lot of factors, that, that contribute. There’s the social factors, there’s the way we’ve been brought up as children, like you mentioned as a child, you were a high achiever and maybe for you, you did well in school and you would, you perform well in different circumstances and you would probably be praised for that. And feel good, right? So that was a way of course you wanted to keep doing it , right?

Yeah,

[00:12:17] Pam: yeah. That’s a really interesting perspective that I hadn’t thought of. Of course you’re rewarded when you performed well.

And of course you want that all the time. . Yeah. So you build this feedback loop that if I’m good, yeah. I get rewarded or praised, so I need to be good all the time.

[00:12:39] Sarah: Yes. Interesting. I think, so there’s two, two topics that are coming up from me. I’m just writing them down.

So the first is this idea, cuz you started with a definition of perfectionism that really centered on this, this compulsion, that’s my word, this compulsion to be flawless in our performance. And demand flawless flawlessness from others around us in order to feel so satisfied and the impossibility of that.

And I want to acknowledge that in that is a huge loss because as people were not flawless. As people we’re flawed. That’s humanity. So if we’re denying those things and pushing them away and ashamed of them and we try to hide from them, we’re striving to be something that’s not even it’s not possible, but it’s also a loss of like appreciating like the wholeness of ourselves.

[00:13:43] Pam: Yeah.  I love that. I what is bringing up for me is like in relationships, whether it’s friendships or a romantic relationship. , the strongest relationships come out of going through things together. Having imperfect moments. , whether it be an argument or something external that you can’t control, like whatever it is.

Having those imperfect moments. Strengthens your relationship if you have a relationship that there’s never been any conflict or stripe or anything like it’s, it ends up being very surface level, like you don’t have that deep connection. Yeah, because if you’ve avoided that, like you haven’t lived, like you haven’t been truthful about what’s going on, right?

If you’ve avoided all conflict and problems, it just doesn’t work that way. And the other thing that it brings up is that perfect is so boring. If you have ever met someone, which I, we probably all have, there’s like people who pretend that there’s absolutely nothing wrong and they’re perfectly fine, and they’re like, they’re not interesting people, right?

They’re so closed off and you don’t feel comfortable around them because you can’t be imperfect…

[00:14:59] Sarah: Yeah. Yes.

[00:14:59] Pam: In their presence.

[00:15:01] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s so true. You, that’s, know, we often hear about vulnerability and if somebody is willing to be vulnerable, we can feel closer to them.

Yeah. And of course somebody pretending to be perfect is just hiding that vulnerability. Yeah. And yeah, I’ve thought of that in relation to being a mom and thinking, I don’t want… I have a girl and a boy. I don’t want either of them. I was gonna say my daughter, but same for my son.

I don’t want either of them having unrealistic expectations of themselves. , which already I see, by the way. Yeah, of course. Which already I see. And I know that they’re peers. I’ve spoken to other parents. It’s not a surprise. You recognized it in yourself as a child. It’s like transcends generations, right?

Yeah. But I don’t want them to think, oh, I can never make a mistake. I have to do everything really well. I have to be on top of everything in order to feel lovable and worthy. Yeah. So I’m trying. , include that in my parenting and the conversations. And then also when I’ve been upset, when I’ve made mistakes sometimes I will bring those to the conversation, to the dinner table.

They might see me and know or whatever it is. But consciously I think, okay, here’s an opportunity for them to show, for me to show them my humanity. . Yeah. Like I’m not perfect. I don’t think they think that I’m perfect, but I, nor should I want them to. Is my point, because I don’t wanna model that.

Yeah. Because then how is that setting them up for a good, healthy life? Yeah. If they think they have to, if they think oh my gosh, my parents are so perfect, they never made a, they never did anything wrong. It’s just not tenable. .

[00:16:47] Pam: I think that’s great. I think it brings up going back to me as a kid.

One of the stories that I’ve had for the majority of my adult life maybe even into my teenage years, is that I’m a quitter. because I look back at activities that I did. I played softball when I was young and I was really good at it, but I quit. I played orchestra, I played percussion and band.

I played piano. I played basketball, I played volleyball. I had all of these activities and in a short span of life, probably over the course of two to three years, I quit everything that I was doing. And then I didn’t really pick up any hobbies again until my forties because I would start things, whether it was a hobby or even working out or any sort of like I’m gonna do this thing, whatever it was and I quit every single thing. So I had this story. I’m a quitter. I’m a quitter now. I never stick with anything. I don’t do anything. And you and I talked about that when I was working with you and you were like maybe you didn’t quit. Maybe you just chose not to continue. There’s a difference.

If something isn’t making you happy, then it’s okay to stop doing it. But also, looking back, I see that it was a lot of perfectionism. I quit things because it wasn’t fun because of the stress of having to achieve. So I didn’t, I never learned how to just do something for fun. Even if I was good at it, if I wasn’t the best or even softball, I was very good at it. But if I made a mistake in a game, I didn’t know how to deal with that. I never learned how recover, I didn’t know how. So it wasn’t fun anymore. As soon as things got competitive, they weren’t fun for me because I didn’t know how to just have fun and not be the best.

[00:18:55] Sarah: Yeah. Sorry. Keep going.

[00:18:57] Pam: No, I was just gonna say that I think that is a way that perfectionism can show up Yeah. Is not being able to do things for fun.

[00:19:05] Sarah: Yeah. And I, and great point because I think we often think of the perfectionism, the way we were talking about it at first. Oh, a perfectionist is someone who is like a super striver and really excels in their career and has all their stuff together, right? That’s like an idea of perfectionism. But I think there’s also this huge manifestation of perfectionism, which is avoidance. Because when we’re unable to cope with not being, not living up to whatever standard we have of ourselves.

It’s I don’t wanna feel so uncomfortable and potentially be judged whether, we think other people are judging us, but really they don’t care. It’s ourselves. We’re just judging ourselves. But I think that’s a huge problem with perfectionism, like one of the biggest sort of issues with it, one is like the first one we talked about was like the anxiety that it can cause not be thinking I’m not good enough and I need to do more.

But then there’s this other one which is instead of the striving, it’s just completely retreating. . Whether that looks like, quitting a hobby or just not putting something out into the world like I can think in myself. when I became an entrepreneur, which was never I never really wanted, it was never my dream to, help my own business.

It just that’s how my career evolved. And I’m really… because I loved what I was doing… but the avenue, like all the things that came with running my own business and suddenly becoming an entrepreneur, I found a lot of it really challenging and I found, especially at the beginning and now, I have more awareness of it and know and have, I’m getting and seeking the right help to move through it.

But if anything, my perfectionism there didn’t go with like the striving that you’re talking about. It was more the I’ll just avoid all of this stuff because it might not be good enough. Because like I don’t have like my perfect customer avatar or like my perfect copy for my website or. Perfect name for the new business or my perfect format of the newsletter.

So and then I just don’t do anything. And of course I wouldn’t have thought of that’s perfectionism, but it is. Because I knew enough, instead of just thinking, if I’m thinking if one of my clients came to me, I’d say you have enough to contribute. Just work with what you got and do your best and put it out there.

Yeah. But for myself, I. I can struggle with that too. And it’s I want everything to feel like it’s a certain, I don’t know, this certain level of solidity and oh, I’m really clear and it’s so beautiful and powerful and that’s maybe not accessible yet. But I would let that stop me from following through and then to my detriment.

You were talking about, oh, like I. I quit, band or baseball and then maybe the loss, the impact was like you missed out on a bunch of years of fun you could have had, right? And then I could think of like my business and of stopping myself with certain elements of my business and thinking, oh, that’s lost impact.

I could have lost experiences, lost revenue. . and lost fun like that too. But I think that’s a, so I really like that you brought that up because I think those are two really clear manifestations of perfectionism that can look different. One is like the drive to achieve more, do more to the point of burnout.

And one is oh my gosh, I feel paralyzed with fear because it’s not gonna be good enough. Let me just throw in the towel or retreat or kind of hide or do the minimum.

[00:22:37] Pam: So let’s talk about some strategies for dealing with things like that. Because when you’re bringing those things up, I have obviously gone through all of the same emotions and roadblocks in building my business and, launching a podcast before and, doing anything.

As soon as you start doing something new, it’s 50 things that you’re like, I don’t know how to do this. I’m just like, and it gets overwhelming. You get I just wanna do this, but now I have to build a website and I have to write a bio and I have to get foot. There’s just a million things.

And so it’s paralyzing and it’s really easy to go, I don’t know how to do this. I quit. . And I think one of the big things there, one of the reasons that happens is because we… everything that we see in the world is people who’ve already done it, they’ve had five or 10 years of experience.

You go and you look at their product or their website and you’re like, mine’s never gonna be that. I don’t know how to do that. , And one of the tools that has really helped me reframe that mindset is, I shouldn’t know how to do this yet. . . I don’t deserve to be at, that… deserve is a bad word.

I don’t know how to do this yet yet, but I can figure it out. . . And it’s so important to reframe that because you have this expectation like, I should just know how to do this. I should be able to just, magically be good at all these things. And there’s absolutely no reason that you should.

Yeah,

[00:24:04] Sarah: Great. Totally. And I think that’s a great place to start in terms of what’s a strategy? First is awareness and like reframing, catching your thoughts, not believing them, and saying, how can I reframe this? And I like, the one you offered, which is very much like a growth mindset kind of thought I’m not supposed to know how to do this.

I’m a beginner. Yeah. And I am supposed to feel feelings of discomfort when I’m learning something new. This is what it’s supposed to feel like. To be a beginner in something. Yeah. And I trust myself that with time I’m gonna, it’s gonna get easier and easier, and I’m gonna know more and more. I like that this is what it’s supposed to feel like. Because it’s so easy to be like, this is hard. I don’t like, yeah. It shouldn’t be like this and it should, this is what it’s supposed to feel

[00:24:52] Pam: I like that.

Yeah.

[00:24:54] Sarah: Okay, great. So yeah, I think that’s one really clear strategy is to stop yourself and then do some reframing and look up, growth mindset as a principal and then figure out how to apply it for yourself.

I think another really important strategy is to get help. So that can look like a coach, can look like a mentor. Can look like therapy. It can look like groups, like whatever it is you’re trying to do, whether you’re exercising, joining a running room group or business, some kind of entrepreneurship group so that you don’t feel that you’re alone because again, that will normalize.

Oh, everybody is struggling or, has similar or relatable challenges right now? So I think not getting help is one of the most common self-sabotage that I see.

So I think, yeah, mind checking your mindset, getting help are too really important things to do.

[00:25:54] Pam: Yeah. I would add. purposely doing things that you’re not good at.

[00:26:01] Sarah: I like that.

[00:26:02] Pam: But that’s a, it’s a muscle that you have to work and you have to get comfortable being bad at things. , yes. So whatever that is for you right now? For me it’s playing the piano. I am not good at it, but I sit down every day and I go, it’s not gonna be, I’m not playing Mozart . Like it’s Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and it still has mistakes.

[00:26:31] Sarah: Is it actually Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

[00:26:32] Pam: It literally is.

Not every day, but it’s that level of like preschool piano and I am 43 years old and that’s okay. Right? I don’t deserve to be good at it because I have just started playing, this is how it’s supposed to feel. Yeah. And even when I have a bad day, when I can’t Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, that’s okay. And the more you do things like that, the more you can sit through being really bad at something and then smile and walk away and go, I did it though, the more comfortable you get in those situations.

[00:27:06] Sarah: I love that, you bring out the age piece because if we saw a preschooler working on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, we’d think, of course they’re doing Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. And of course I’m gonna celebrate that. And I would never berate them, you would never be like, why aren’t you playing a sonata ? Yet to extend ourselves the own courtesy takes an intentionality because there’s this assumption “I’m a grown up”. But I should be able to, play, whatever. Something more elevated . So I love that.

[00:27:37] Pam: And then the other thing that I had here on my list is one that I’ve had to really work at, which is to learn from mistakes. Whether they’re actual mistakes or things that you’re perceiving as mistakes, rather than going into that avoidance mode that you were talking about earlier.

And rather than just shutting down and ignoring it, putting it in the back of the closet and shutting it out, because I don’t wanna think about that time that I was imperfect, like actually journaling about it or sitting down and thinking what happened in that situation? What do I feel went wrong?

Was it actually something that went wrong? What can I do differently in the future? Were my expectations reasonable or not? Just really do like a state of the union on what happened. And learn from it, rather than just repeating the same mistake or having the same expectation over and over again.

[00:28:32] Sarah: Yes. So important. That’s the gold. It’s, yeah. That’s our learning. We get to learn from our, we get to learn from our mistakes. It’s so basic, but we forget that sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And then we can see it as a gift.

[00:28:48] Pam: Yeah. That’s the hard part, right? . Yeah.

[00:28:51] Sarah: Yeah. One of my friends said to me, cuz we were working on something together and I put it out there, it was like a demo of something and I. really didn’t like the way I did. And of course it was my first time was using new technology and it didn’t really go that well and I forgot certain things.

And he laughed and he said, yeah, like we all say that we love growing, but we actually like the way we feel after we’ve grown. The growing part itself is really painful. Really painful. And then I thought, and that helped normalize it. I’m like, oh yeah, I wasn’t supposed to, ace it with no challenges.

Yeah, I was growing and then therefore it was imperfect. So to name it and celebrate it, it took me a while. I was pretty mean to myself for a while about that. But now, yeah. Coming out the other side, of course, I can see, okay, yeah. I was growing and what you’re saying what are the lessons learned?

Okay. Technically I learned some things right. That I wouldn’t have known before. Yeah. So that’s another win. But yeah the growing part is painful.

[00:29:58] Pam: it is

[00:29:59] Sarah: It can feel really painful. But then if we can make that pain not be a big deal, it’s yeah, of course it feels painful.

[00:30:06] Pam: Yeah. And I think so in meditation or mindfulness the topic of impermanence is what comes up a lot.

So it’s the idea that nothing is permanent. Whether it’s a thought that comes into your head or a situation or a relationship or a person, like nothing. Nothing in the world is permanent. And so building that awareness that I made a mistake, or I did something I didn’t like, or I put out a product that isn’t as good as I want it to be.

All of those things they’re impermanent, they happen and then we grow and we move on and things change and you put out a new product, you do better next time. Like everything is constantly moving, changing, evolving, and so if you get caught in. Like holding onto this one thing, this one expectation. Whatever it is, you are creating a permanence in your head that does not exist in the world.

You’re creating a lot of suffering over something that is gone. Like the moment it comes, it’s gone. .

[00:31:24] Sarah: Yeah. And then if you’re doing that, then you’re also, you are wasting opportunity. Yeah. You’re wasting brain space and energy space and heart space by thinking about something that’s no longer there.

Yeah. So what else could go there?

Like what other neutral or positive ideas and thoughts could be there? Yeah. So it’s a big waste. It is a big waste.

So it’s probably a good idea to talk about the difference between ruminating on something and reflecting on it. . So it’s really easy to get stuck in rumination over something that you think you did wrong or didn’t do well, or whatever. Whatever your perfectionism is clinging onto, , if you ruminate on that, you’re just thinking the same thing over again. You’re reliving it, you’re beating yourself up. You are just stuck in a non-productive cycle of thinking, thinking about this thing and reliving it.

Whereas reflection is thinking through in a productive way. What happened? What was my mindset? Was it reasonable in the situation? How can I learn from it and behave differently in the future? Can I? Was there anything that I could do? Taking a more productive. Looking at it in a way that helps you move on from it rather than staying stuck in it.

Yeah. Ruminating versus reflection. And I think those are great distinctions. So do you have any suggestions for like, how to catch yourself in a state of rumination and maybe redirect to a more productive reflection process?

[00:33:17] Pam: Yeah. For me. And I’m sure that this is the same for most people, it feels different in your body.

When you’re in rumination it, it feels tense and stressful, anxiety inducing. You feel – you actually feel – the emotions that you felt when the thing happened or when you were, when you were in it because you are actively reliving it. Just like when you watch a horror movie and you’re scared even though you’re not actually in the horror movie.

It’s the exact same thing happening in your head when you are in that state of rumination. Putting yourself through the stress over and over again. So if you are thinking about something and you’re feeling that, you’re feeling like you’re right back in it and you’ve got that tension and that stress, or that embarrassment or whatever you felt, if you’re actively feeling that to me, you’re in a more of a ruminating state.

If you are thinking about it in more of a conscious and aware way where you’re, where you can feel separation from the event you might still have some emotions come up when you’re thinking about it, but you can look at it as, this is a thing that happened. Not, this is me, this is something I did wrong.

It’s a separated state. Where you’re reflecting rather than still living in it. . , do you have that same experience?

[00:34:38] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I definitely have experience in both because I can ruminate. I was a highly anxious little kid and have done a lot of work to manage my anxiety with more skill and awareness.

But it still pops up. It’s my default. If I’m tired, if I’m overwhelmed, and if, certain kinds of things that, that are like button hot buttons for me , I can go to it really quickly. So I know all about rumination. And then the reflection I also know about. You know me and my workbooks.

I love creating workbooks. I ask myself the same questions in the mornings, the same questions in the evenings. I do reflection at the end of every month. I do reflection with my own coach. So I think having like little structured ways, like number one for the rumination is to get support for anxiety.

Because anxiety and perfectionism often go hand in hand. Yeah, really prioritizing and investing in anxiety tools for anti-anxiety because it’s just, anxiety is just you know , it is just horrible to experience and there are a lot of tools. So yeah, investigating that is one, one thing and investing in how to support yourself with that.

And then for the reflection piece, I think having structured points, whether it’s daily reflection, weekly reflection, monthly reflection, working. Either one-on-one or in a group where that kind of reflective piece is baked into it, so someone can say, what went well and what are you celebrating?

What was challenging and why, and what did you learn from it? I don’t think it has they’re fairly straightforward questions, but it’s just taking the time to ask yourself that or be asked that. And then seeing what lessons came out of it. And then again, that’s how to convert it into the gift.

[00:36:36] Pam: Yeah. And journaling is obviously one of the great ways to build that reflective practice, and I think that you build it in whatever structure. you find works for you, whether it is , group therapy, coaching, journaling, whatever, and those kind of reflections where you’re like looking back over yesterday or last week or last month, those all build that muscle of awareness.

And then you start to be able to bring it into. the moment. So you can start to feel it, come up, feel your perfectionism come up, or whatever tendency it is you can start to sense it more quickly and be able to, in the moment go, oh, there’s my old friend perfectionism. And you start to become aware of your patterns through that reflection process so that you, you can make it a much shorter time that you are in it before you can recognize and redirect.

[00:37:40] Sarah: Yeah. Quicker recovery.

[00:37:42] Pam: Yes, quicker recovery.

[00:37:44] Sarah: So good. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Good reminder about the journaling too. I know that’s a big one for you. It is. We gotta find our tools.

[00:37:55] Pam: Yes, there are a lot of ’em out there when we’re gonna do a whole episode on it sometime. But I do wanna mention unwinding anxiety, which is a book and an app. It has been instrumental in helping me with my anxiety. And there are a lot of different levels of anxiety, of course. My partner went through severe anxiety that actually ended up being due to his brain waves not functioning properly. So that’s the kind of anxiety that wouldn’t be solved with any amount of reflection or any amount of tools, it needed an intervention. But for kind of our like day-to-day anxiety the kind of things that do come up from these tendencies, from perfectionism especially the tools that you can get in the Unwinding Anxiety book I found extremely helpful.

And now that I’ve learned more about mindfulness and meditation techniques, I’ve realized that the foundations of the practices in that book are actually from right meditation and mindfulness. So it’s it is rooted in science and really powerful tools that can help you shift the way your brain reacts in situations or helps you get that quicker recovery that we were just talking.

[00:39:18] Sarah: So good. I can’t wait to dive into that one. Yeah.

[00:39:24] Pam: Ooh, I had one other question that I wanted to ask you. When we worked together, you had me take a quiz to find my saboteurs. And perfectionism is not one that is in this quiz. It’s not on the list, but two of my top two are pleaser and hyper achiever. I was like almost off the charts on those.

I think it’s out of 10 and I was a 9.4 on people pleasing and an 8.1 on hyper achieving. . And first of all, the quiz that we’re talking about is available at PositiveIntelligence. com. It’s their Saboteurs quiz. It’s free. And it was really enlightening to me to see these tendencies that it calls out because you, it gives you a name for what you’re dealing with. So you can create a little separation and go, oh, that’s my people pleasing, that’s my hyper achieving, not it’s me. But I’m wondering if you, in your practice, have noticed an association with people who are people pleasers or overachievers being. Or leaning towards perfectionism is there a lot of crossover there?

[00:40:28] Sarah: Yes, definitely. And to give a little context to listeners that it’s a quiz that I use as a basis for a whole program that I run Yeah. With folks on managing their or understanding and then ultimately developing a better relationship with their saboteurs.

And a saboteur quick definition is a voice within us, a tendency within us to self-sabotage. And the whole program is as Pam mentioned, you can find out more about from the website, positiveintelligence.com. And it was developed by a doctor at Stanford Shirzad Chamine, and it’s a great.

So all that to say I do work with this sort of model and walk a lot of people through the model to help them better understand why they self-sabotage. And in what ways? And just to identify the patterns. And so your question, Pam, was around, do I notice a link between the hyper achiever and the perfectionist?

Definitely. And the people pleaser and the perfectionist. Yes. I think almost all of the saboteurs, there’s different types. There’s a perfectionism in it, like controller is another one. Hypervigilant, controller cuz they want to be doing everything themselves. That’s because, they think their way is like the best way every other way is flawed, right? Yeah. Or hypervigilant is also when that, that I score fairly high on, which is like a fear. The other shoe is going to drop, right? Yeah, you’re always like, oh, I’m the lookout for what might go wrong. Everything’s going well now, but…

So that’s the hypervigilance you’re scanning, right? So that’s also perfectionistic in a way because you’re thinking I want my life to be quote unquote perfect and orderly. And life isn’t like that. Life is unpredictable, right? We’re not in control. Anything can happen at any moment.

And so part of, the medicine for that, or the antidote for that is, building self-trust. Like whatever happens, I trust myself to come up with a solution. I trust myself to care for myself and my world. I trust that I can recover. So I think perfectionism really underlies a lot of them, but I think in what we’re talking about.

Oh, and then you, there’s avoider is another one, which also I score high on. And avoider, so I would say the one the profiles that really stand out with the way we’ve been talking about perfectionism today, I would say the hyper achiever and controller is very much that first kind of perfectionism, like the drive “must succeed, must be the best, must never make an error”, is like that kind of hyper achiever and then the avoider.

And the pleaser is that other kind of perfectionism of ” oh my gosh I better not make any waves and not do anything wrong. So maybe I’ll just sit back and not make myself known.”

[00:43:16] Pam: Yeah. You touched on it briefly, but what the realization that I just had as you’re talking through all of that, that perfectionism is an attempt to control the outcome.

We think if I am perfect, if I don’t make any mistakes, if I, do X, Y, and Z, then I will get back exactly what I want. I will get this result. Yeah.

[00:43:43] Sarah: If I’m perfect, everything will be okay. Yeah. So long as I’m perfect, as long as I’m perfect, nothing will go wrong. Yeah.

[00:43:50] Pam: Yeah. Oh, that’s so interesting.

I had never thought of perfectionism in the sense of controlling outcomes. , I thought about it in the sense of I have to be perfect because I don’t want to be perceived as imperfect, but it I didn’t think of it in the context of, I am doing this to control everything so that nothing goes wrong.

Like of course I didn’t want things to go wrong, but I hadn’t maybe made that direct correlation that this is a way that I try to control things. And I love being in control. Okay. Yes. Even though I don’t… actually I do. Apparently I scored 7.5 on controller. I always forget that one cause I don’t want to think about it.

But yeah, I always joke that I don’t like roller coasters because I’m riding in them, but if I was driving it, I would probably be fine.

[00:44:44] Sarah: Hilarious.

[00:44:45] Pam: I definitely like to be in control. So that’s that expression of perfectionism is a really interesting thing for me to reflect on that. I’m trying to control an outcome by being perfect when I have absolutely no control over other people’s responses, their actions, what they do.

I can only…

[00:45:04] Sarah: yeah. And the world.

[00:45:05] Pam: And the world, yeah.

[00:45:08] Sarah: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah it’d be interesting for you to retake the assessment and see over the last few years when you’ve done a lot of inner work and outer work as a reflection of that to see how your scores have changed.

[00:45:23] Pam: So I have about six months ago I retook it and it was almost exactly the same.

[00:45:28] Sarah: Oh it was okay. .

[00:45:31] Pam: I’m nothing if not consistent

[00:45:36] Sarah: Oh my God. Yeah. That’s funny. That’s amazing.

[00:45:40] Pam: So that’s actually an interesting point that like you can do all the work in the world and you can become very aware of your tendencies. So it doesn’t mean they go away, you just. Tools to Yeah, mitigate their impact on your happiness and your productivity and your life.

[00:45:59] Sarah: For sure. And actually this is inspired by one of the premises of the Positive Intelligence framework that all of these, quote unquote saboteurs, and we can throw perfectionist perfectionism into the mix because it’s the same kind of idea of a tendency that ends. , like it ends up holding us back and harming us.

But it’s presenting as “well I’m here to help you”. I’m here to help you be loved. I’m here to help you succeed. I’m here to help you do great work, right?

[00:46:33] Pam: Yep.

[00:46:34] Sarah: The premise is it’s, our brain is telling us this is here to serve me. And the truth is, in some ways it does, right? Because when we’re young, we do need to be, and when we’re old too, like at all ages, we do need to be loved.

We do need to know how to cooperate with others. We do need to know how to create work and have it be of good quality, right? , we do need to be have some ambition. We don’t need to, but many of us wanna have those qualities, right? Yeah. I don’t think the qualities in and of themselves, negative per se.

So it can come from a good place. And often our saboteurs are like, they’re evolved from some of our greatest strengths and virtues, right? Like those of us who are people pleasers, like we’re also often major connectors and empathetic and great friends and have really great relationships.

It’s just when that’s left unchecked. Yeah. What’s the damage. Yeah. Similarly with hyper achiever, great. Like you wanna go after big goals, you want to, do great things and work really hard and bring great things into the world. Amazing. You should do that. It becomes a saboteur when it’s like your worth becomes only identified with those results.

Yeah. And that’s where the perfectionism too. It’s like it comes from a place of wanting to be good and do good, right? , So that is fine. And it’s fine to be that way. The risk is left unchecked. Will I still love myself and will I still love others? And will I still love the world when it’s flaw because it is.